Chemical Weapons Convention

Lord Archer of Sandwell: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	Whether they have any proposals to make to the Second Review Conference of the Chemical Weapons Convention to address questions of non-compliance.

Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, the United Kingdom will participate actively in the Second Review Conference. Compliance is central to the effectiveness of the convention and we take seriously the need to ensure it. The UK has focused on strengthening mechanisms to detect and deter non-compliance, including maintaining the credibility of the verification system. The EU has agreed its priorities for the conference, including issues of compliance as set out in its common position.

Lord Archer of Sandwell: My Lords, I thank my noble friend, and not just conventionally, for that encouraging Answer, but does he agree that, precisely because the convention is drafted carefully and comprehensively, it has been partly overtaken by time? Does he agree, for example, that proliferation no longer consists exclusively of passing on weapons to other people but could consist of transferring details of a technological process that could be fairly simply implemented? Will he assure the House that the preparatory work for this conference, both governmental and non-governmental, will be reflected in discussions if not in technical amendments?

Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I assure my noble friend that there has been extensive consultation with non-governmental organisations and academics and that the preparatory conference is being led by a distinguished British diplomat, our ambassador in the Netherlands, so I hope that his concerns are being well addressed.

Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, does the Minister accept that this is one convention that has had some success over its 16 or 17-year life? Will he also accept that, if the British Government decide to press really hard at the forthcoming April conference both for a speeding up of the destruction of chemical arsenals, particularly in Russia and the United States, and for more effective compliance in China, Russia, Iran, Sudan and one or two other countries, he will have my full backing and that of this side of the House?

Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I am very happy to accept a success. The noble Lord is right: there are 183 parties to this convention, only five countries with declared stockpiles and a very robust mechanism for investigating others about which there might be suspicions. We hope that, by 2012, all stockpiles will have been destroyed. There are just one or two countries that may not meet that deadline, but in general he is right that this is a success.

Lord Lee of Trafford: My Lords, an article in yesterday's Times highlighted the current suffering of more than 55,000 Iranians as the result of Saddam Hussein's ghastly chemical attacks 20 years ago during the Iran-Iraq war. Today's Iraq is one of only seven countries that have neither signed nor acceded to the Chemical Weapons Convention. Does the Minister agree that US/UK pressure should be applied to ensure that Iraq signs up to the convention without delay?

Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I certainly agree with the noble Lord and I believe, although I will have to confirm it in writing, that Iraq is one of those countries that are preparing to sign.

Lord Judd: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, in view of the immense significance of this type of potential warfare and therefore of the convention, it is crucial that at the Second Review Conference we should be represented by senior ministerial leadership, thereby not only engaging at a ministerial level in the conference but demonstrating that the Government are giving this issue the priority that it deserves? What have the Government been able to do to raise awareness in the chemical industry in this country about the significance of the CWC?

Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, we have been trying to raise the level of ministerial attendance at such conferences to signal our support. We are concentrating in the discussions here on seeking the opinions of the industry among others and on communicating to it the importance of compliance. I very much take my noble friend's point on promoting and advertising the goals of this treaty to the industry.

Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, does the Minister agree that in the further consideration of this convention it should be borne in mind that toxicology is not in every respect an exact science? From time to time, certain chemical substances are released into the environment that may not at first sight appear to be chemical weapons; they may be thought to be innocuous in very small doses but they may be very harmful to the individual in larger doses. Will that point be taken into account in considering the effects of this convention?

Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, it is certainly correct that there are toxic chemicals that fall outside so-called schedule 1 to this convention. One of the issues for review and for any successor convention after 2012 will be to make sure that there is a more comprehensive list of such chemicals.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, will Her Majesty's Government bring forward specific measures relating to emissions problems that have arisen since the last review conference, such as those on dual use and definitions? Also, I did not quite catch the earlier answer: will we be represented by a Minister?

Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, on the latter point, I honestly cannot say at this point, because I am not aware of the dates of the conference, although I suspect that I would be the Minister involved. We will certainly make every effort. On the noble Lord's first question, the whole point of this review procedure, or preparation procedure for the review, is to catch up with changes that require further investigation. We support the scientific advisory board, as well as training courses, financially, to try to keep the convention current.

Lord Elton: My Lords, how many of the seven countries that have not signed the convention have significant stockpiles of chemical weapons? How many of the 183 countries that have signed the convention have significant derogations from it?

Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, on the 12 that have not signed, I am afraid that I cannot give the noble Lord that answer immediately, but I shall return to it. Of the 183 that have signed, five still have stockpiles, and a further country has destroyed its stockpile.

Banks: Charges

Lord Dykes: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	Whether they will hold discussions with United Kingdom banks to secure a system of appropriate charges to ordinary customers for internal United Kingdom transactions and transactions within the European Union payments transfer system.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, decisions surrounding a bank's pricing model are commercial in nature and for each bank to take individually. The Government are consulting on the implementation of the payment services directive. The intention of this directive is to support a single payments market in EU currencies and provide for standardised conduct of business requirements, which should afford enhanced consumer protection.

Lord Dykes: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Will the Government look urgently at this matter with the regulator and the banks, as he has already indicated? The single payments area for euros started on 1 January. Is the Minister aware that the euro-zone bank charges for domestic customers are too high still and, for UK customers, domestic charges and charges for changing from sterling to euros are still on the high side? After all, we know that the cost to the banks when they press the electronic button to transmit even large amounts of money is just a couple of pence.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the payment services directive does not come into effect until November 2009, so we have time for adequate consultation. On the broader issue of bank charges, the House will appreciate that the Office of Fair Trading is involved in intensive scrutiny and the outcome of a current court case is awaited on these issues.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, has any progress been made on the time it takes to clear cheques? That matter has been raised in the House before and it is always considered that this is an invisible or hidden charge to customers. Your cheque goes in and it takes days to clear, but any money you take out comes out instantly.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, that is an issue but perhaps a minor one with regard to bank charges. I assure the noble Baroness that the Office of Fair Trading investigation will cover all significant issues of bank charges.

Lord Harrison: My Lords, does my noble friend recognise that it is a pernicious practice of both the sending and receiving banks to charge often inflated commission and that that in itself is a great inhibition to small businesses profiting within the single European market?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, it is exactly those kinds of concerns to which my noble friend has drawn attention that has conditioned the Office of Fair Trading inquiry. It decided that it needed a very firm legal base for such an important and significant inquiry, which is why it has brought a test case. We are awaiting the outcome of that case for the OFT to make further progress.

Lord Naseby: My Lords, perhaps I may return to transactions between the UK and the EU. Is the Minister aware that for all British subjects who have EU accounts and pay by cheque in, for instance, France, the cost of processing that cheque is way above the cost of processing any cheque anywhere else in Europe?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the inspiration behind the directive is to bring uniformity between states in Europe to ensure that payments made across borders are at the same level as those within frontiers and to tackle exactly the issue to which the noble Lord has drawn attention.

Lord Broers: My Lords, will the Minister confirm that he is aware that the problem is very often not the bank charge but the exchange rate? I want to check that that is controlled.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, that is an important component part of the potential costs that the customer bears. I assure the noble Lord that that is all part of the very intensive investigation into the issue of bank charges, which is the subject of the work of the Office of Fair Trading. If there is a criticism to be made, it is that the OFT is taking a considerable time to deal with the matter. That merely reflects the comprehensiveness of its approach.

Lord Newby: My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the reasons for the high cost of transferring money between the UK and the euro-zone area is simply that the currency has to be changed from sterling into euros? Is it not the case that one of the many advantages of the UK joining the euro-zone would be a reduction in charges?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I had anticipated that that question might emerge from the Liberal Benches, and I am surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, did not raise it. Of course that is one advantage of the euro-zone, but there are a few attendant disadvantages too.

Baroness Noakes: My Lords, we are grateful to the Liberal Democrat Benches for bringing up the issue of euro-zone membership yet again. Can I invite the Minister to come a little further and agree with me that paying the odd exchange transaction fee is a small price to pay for remaining outside the straitjacket of the euro-zone?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I can bring amity to both the opposition parties because when the payment services directive is implemented—we have a considerable amount of time before it is—the issue of the cost difference for transactions between the euro-zone and the UK will have been ironed out. Therefore, we will not be members of the euro-zone, but we will have the same advantages in costs.

Agriculture: Bluetongue

The Countess of Mar: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	On what basis they have relaxed the movement restrictions for bluetongue.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, on 20 December, in accordance with EU law, Defra declared that the UK bluetongue restricted zone was in a vector-free period. Falling temperatures and a declining midge count provided evidence that the risk of disease transmission was low. Based on an assessment of historic meteorological data and historic trapping, the vector-free period ended on 15 March. We have now returned to the pattern of movement restrictions in place between September and December last year.

The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. In the light of the recent discovery of viremic calves and the possibility of maternal transmission of bluetongue, does he agree that it is vital that we understand the overwintering process for bluetongue? What funding has been made available to the Institute for Animal Health to research this issue? Further, does the noble Lord agree that it would give farmers a lot more confidence in Defra if the officials who compiled the leaflet Bluetongue: How to spot the disease knew the difference between sheep and cattle and that you do not vaccinate a recumbent cow?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, it is worrying about what happened with the exports from the Netherlands to Northern Ireland in January. I cannot give a figure for the money, but research is going on to see whether there is a possibility of oral transfer mechanisms or transfers from cows to calves of bluetongue because that has not been thought to be the issue to date. Work is going on across Europe on the issue. The EU Commission has looked at it, but the evidence base is incomplete, so further work is being undertaken.
	On the second point, perhaps I may say how grateful I am to the noble Countess for drawing my attention to this lapse in technical efficiency as soon as she discovered it rather than waiting to cause me acute embarrassment at the Dispatch Box. As she will realise, the website was changed by around noon today so that it now shows the clinical signs in cattle accompanied by photographs of cattle and the clinical signs in sheep accompanied by photographs of sheep. The one thing I would say in defence is that there was a separate area on the website of the clinical signs of bluetongue accompanied by photographs, all of which were accurate. However, the leaflet was not. This is a lapse that I regret.

Lord Redesdale: My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on the clear information that is available on the website which states that the vector-free period ended on 15 March. However, is he satisfied that those without access to the website are being given the information about the movement of animals after that date?

Lord Rooker: Yes, my Lords, We expect all animal keepers to take responsibility for keeping themselves up to date with what is going on. Not everyone has access to the website, but sufficient information has been published. We gave virtually a month's notice of the end of the vector-free period, which finished on 15 March, and we issued the notification on 22 February making it abundantly clear. We had good scientific evidence for doing that, and support from the industry. More than enough notice was given because the information was put out not just on the website, but in the farming periodicals and technical press. We expect responsible livestock keepers to ensure that they keep themselves up to date.

Lord Grantchester: My Lords, while admiring Defra's objective to contain the disease, there comes a time when the emphasis must change to allow trade to take place and businesses to be able to carry on, even under the cloud of the disease. Does the Minister have in mind the point at which this change might come?

Lord Rooker: ot at the moment, my Lords. We are close to it. We have had 108 cases of establishments with bluetongue. Some 42 were discovered during the checks over the winter; there have been 80,000 pre-movement checks. At that rate, the figure of 108 is still quite small. The general assessment is that we will be ready to start vaccinating as soon as the vaccine arrives, in April or May. We were the first country in the European Union to order supplies. Vaccination will be done on a voluntary basis, as I have explained, but will have the cheapest distribution costs of anywhere in Europe. There will come a time, as my noble friend says, when the assessment may be that to continue trading, we have to declare the whole of GB a protection zone. We are not at that state yet but we will not be far from it if there are major outbreaks of bluetongue in the spring.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, to follow up on that response, the Government have stated their intention to set up a rolling vaccination programme by extending the current zones once the animals within the zones have been vaccinated. Has this strategy already received European blessing or is it a way round the EU regulation to declare the whole of England a single zone?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, it is not a way round the EU regulation. Everything we have done has been agreed with the European Union. Our vaccination programme has been agreed with it, contrary to last week's misleading and unprofessional press release from the Federation of Veterinarians of Europe, which has been rebutted strongly by the Chief Veterinary Officer. There will be a case for allowing animal movements in order to continue trade. The fact that we found only 42 cases in 80,000 checks over the winter shows that the zones are in roughly the right place. We have confidence in that. There will come a time, and it may not be far away, when the zones will be extended—they are quite large now—and that to protect trade it will be easier to cover the whole country. We will do that in conjunction with our European partners. They have agreed with everything we have done so far and agree with our vaccination plans as well.

Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, can the Minister predict how much bluetongue is expected throughout the UK this coming summer?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I do not know. We have midge traps around the country. We know how many midges we trapped from November to December, what happened with the temperatures and all the other factors. Because of the date now, the temperature change and the possibility of the virus living over the winter, we will know within about a month whether we will have some serious problems. I cannot possibly predict the scale of it.

Lord Berkeley: My Lords, could my noble friend help a non-farmer like me? Is it safe to eat meat from a cow that has bluetongue? If it is, what are we worrying about? We can let the whole lot have bluetongue and save a lot of government money.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, animals that are poorly do not go to slaughter; they do not enter the food chain.

Viscount Ullswater: My Lords, is it right that the livestock sector should bear all the financial risks of the closure of markets by the Government when there is an outbreak of any of these exotic diseases?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, we are talking about bluetongue, not foot and mouth. Simply because of the transmission rate the markets were not affected—or only to the extent of moving animals from one zone to another. They could move from the protection zone to slaughter but could not be moved if they were going to live. There was some interference in trade but no closure of markets. It is true that everywhere these zones are drawn on the map the abattoirs and the markets are the wrong side of the line, but there were no actual closures. Animals could continue to move from a protection zone to slaughter.

Asylum Seekers: Iran

Lord Roberts of Llandudno: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	What their policy is on removals to Iran.

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, we recognise that there are individuals from Iran who are able to demonstrate a need for international protection, and it is only right that we provide protection to those in genuine fear of persecution. However, enforcing the return of those who have no right to remain here is a key part of upholding a robust and fair asylum system.

Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, I am not sure whether or not I thank the Minister for that reply. I thank the 80 Members of this House who last week joined me in the appeal on behalf of the young Iranian whose deportation has been delayed. I thank the Home Secretary for her response.
	When people are forcibly removed from the UK, what mechanism is there to monitor the treatment they receive in their homeland? How do we keep an eye on that? And is it not time, in spite of the Minister's Answer, that we joined other countries in having a moratorium on forced return not only to Iran but to other places where folk are persecuted, tortured and possibly even executed?

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, it is worth saying that we are not aware of any individual who has been executed in Iran in recent years solely on the grounds of homosexuality, and we do not consider that there is systematic persecution of gay men in Iran. However, we have said in our most recent operational guidance note that if a claimant can demonstrate that their homosexual acts have brought them to the attention of the authorities to the extent that they will face a real risk of punishment that will be harsh and will amount to persecution, they should be granted refugee status as a member of a particular social group. In addition, gay rights activists who have come to the attention of the authorities face a real risk of persecution, and they should be granted asylum as well.

Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, is the Minister aware that in the past 30 years some 120,000 members of the Iranian Resistance have been executed, including women and children? Is he further aware that in this week's elections more than 1,000 reformist candidates were prevented from standing, their newspapers were closed down and they were refused permission to hold public meetings? Given those circumstances and the need to encourage democracy and change in Iran, how can the Government justify the continued decision to proscribe the Iranian Resistance, a decision that our own judges have described as, to use their word, perverse?

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, that is a bit beyond the Question being asked. On the issue of the returning of gay people to Iran, we have concerns about the treatment of gays in that country. The FCO and NGOs monitor what is happening in Iran, and we are not aware of any individual having been executed solely on the grounds of homosexuality.

Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: My Lords, can the Minister confirm that there have been 57 critical reports in the United Nations about the repressive nature of the mullahs' regime in Iran? The abuses of human rights include the amputation of limbs without anaesthetics, the gouging out of eyes, the hanging of convicted minors from the ends of cranes in public and the death penalty for those convicted of homosexuality. Will the Minister take the opportunity to speak to any one of 200 Members of your Lordships' House who share my views on this vile regime if he needs any other evidence that it is unsafe to return asylum seekers to that regime?

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I return to what I said: we are not aware of any individual having been executed solely on the grounds of homosexuality in Iran, and we are not aware of any that we have returned having been executed.

Baroness Warsi: My Lords, is the Minister aware of discrepancies between in-country information provided in briefs by the Foreign Office and reports produced by Amnesty and Human Rights Watch about the situation in Iran? If the Minister accepts that there are such discrepancies and that our information is not entirely correct, how can our decisions possibly be correct?

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I am going by the information provided, I admit, by the Foreign Office in conjunction with some NGOs. We have no evidence of anyone we have sent back being executed, and we would never send someone back who we felt was in danger of being executed. That is our position with any country in the world; we just do not do that.

Lord Avebury: My Lords, further to the point raised by the noble Baroness, is the Minister aware that the Country of Origin Information Service report on Iran, published by the Home Office, is deficient in many respects? Does he know that it omits quite a few public domain references to the persecution of gays in Iran, including in particular the execution of Makwan Mouloudzadeh, a teenager who was executed for a homosexual offence allegedly committed when he was 13? Will the noble Lord make sure that the Home Office Country of Origin Information Service updates its report and that, in particular, it looks at material in the public domain such as that which one can find on Wikipedia?

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that we will look at that. It is worth repeating that we have concerns about the treatment of gays within Iran. However, in the one case that we looked into, because it was shown on television, we found that two young males were hanged because they were found guilty of raping a 13 year-old boy. They were hanged for the offence of rape. Nevertheless, we certainly will look at the point that the noble Lord raises, as we need to do so.

Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: My Lords, can my noble friend explain how the Foreign Office has performed the miracle of having Nelson still alive in its offices with his telescope stuck to his blind eye?

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, as a naval person I should be able to answer that. All I can say is that I will talk to my colleagues in the Foreign Office to try to ensure that we are getting the best flavour of exactly what is happening in Iran.

Immigration (Discharged Gurkhas) Bill [HL]

Lord Lee of Trafford: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to amend the Immigration Rules in connection with the requirements for indefinite leave to enter and remain in the United Kingdom as a Gurkha discharged from the British Army. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
	Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Bill read a first time, and ordered to be printed.

Statute Law (Repeals) Bill [HL]

Lord Bach: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
	As your Lordships will be aware, one of the statutory functions of the Law Commission and the Scottish Law Commission is to promote the repeal of obsolete and unnecessary enactments. In fulfilment of this function, the Law Commissions have over the past 40 years presented to Parliament 18 reports on statute law repeals with draft Bills attached. The 17 previous reports have resulted in the repeal of over 2,000 whole Acts and partial repeal of thousands of other Acts. The present Bill proposes the repeal of more than 250 whole Acts and the removal of obsolete provisions from nearly 70 others.
	The repeals in the Bill are set out in Schedule 1. They are in 11 parts. The areas covered range, alphabetically, from "Armed Forces" and "County Gaols" to "Town and Country Planning" and "Turnpikes". They include six Acts to finance the building of workhouses in the London area, including an 1819 Act to build the one in Wapping mentioned by Charles Dickens in The Uncommercial Traveller. There are also 12 obsolete Acts relating to the affairs of the East India Company in the period 1796 to 1832.
	Your Lordships will wish to know that the Law Commissions have consulted fully with interested bodies on all the proposed repeals. This Bill and its predecessors play a valuable part in the work of modernising and improving the statute book. I am sure that your Lordships would wish to join me in thanking the two Law Commissions for the very careful and detailed way in which they have set about this important task. I should also like to thank those who have been consulted by the commissions for their contributions.
	As some of the repeals relate to devolved matters in Scotland, a legislative consent Motion has been lodged with the Scottish Parliament, in accordance with standard practice. If your Lordships are content to give the Bill a Second Reading, it will be referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills in the usual way. I commend the Bill to the House.
	Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(Lord Bach.)

Lord Henley: My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on introducing this very worthy Bill which, as he said, adds another 200 whole Acts to the 2,000 or so that have been repealed over the past few years as a result of the work of the Law Commission and the Scottish Law Commission. I offer my congratulations to them as well.
	I was amused that in referring to some of the historical anomalies being repealed by the Bill, the Minister mentioned those relating to the East India Company. The first six of those relate to the East India Company and the Nabobs of the Carnatic Acts, whereas the seventh relates to the East India Company and Creditors of the Nabobs of the Carnatic Act. I do not know what happened to the finances of the nabobs of the Carnatic in that time, but perhaps the noble Lord will be able to discover the answer when he attends the Consolidation Bills Committee.
	I also note with amusement that some of the Acts being repealed were passed by the current Government as recently as 2003—from the Home Office, we have parts of the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 and parts of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. I again appeal to the Minister and the Ministry of Justice, the department he represents, to consider passing fewer Bills—perhaps starting with the criminal justice Bill which is currently before the House. There might then be fewer to repeal in due course.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I regret to see in the schedule the repeal of the Chester Castle Gaol and other Buildings Act 1807. I know that jail well. What I do not see in the Bill is the repeal of a provision that is widely believed to appertain to Chester, that any Welshman caught within the walls in the hours of darkness will be summarily executed. Perhaps that has gone in an earlier statute law repeals Bill. I assure the Minister that I shall look into it to ensure that it is not still relevant.
	We welcome the Bill and the work of the Law Commission. We are working with the Government and others to see how the Law Commission's recommendations can be brought into operation much more quickly and by a simplified procedure. We applaud this Second Reading.

Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, will there be any recommendations on consolidation before the Bill is sent to the Joint Committee? I ask because I am a member of the committee.

Lord Bach: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, I do not believe that there will be an attempt at consolidation in this Bill. I am grateful particularly to the Front Benches opposite for their welcome to the Bill. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, is upset by the mention of the gaol to which he referred. I shall ensure that its inclusion in the Bill is carefully looked into to see whether that is appropriate or whether it should be excluded. But I am grateful for his comments.
	I thank the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for his support. He specifically mentioned the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 and pointed out that it was passed under this Government. I can at least assure him that the East India Company Acts were not passed under a Labour Government. However, Sections 37 and 38 of the 2001 Act—I know he will want to hear the details, even if the House wants to move on—were intended to repeal provisions. They became spent when their respective repeals took effect at Royal Assent on 14 December 2001. So I do not think that that Act and that course can be used to blame this Government. But I congratulate him on a good try.

Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, would the Minister be good enough to tell the House what the oldest Act on the statute book will be after this Bill is enacted?

Lord Rooker: Minors shall not be MPs Act 1695.

Lord Bach: My Lords, I had no idea but my noble friend Lord Rooker has come up with an answer. I think that that is minors spelt with an "o". If I am wrong about that, I will write to the noble Lord.
	On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.

Climate Change Bill [HL]

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now further considered on Report.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
	Clause 36 [Trading Schemes]:

Lord Woolmer of Leeds: moved Amendment No. 183A:
	Clause 36, page 18, line 13, at end insert—
	"( ) No regulations under this section may make provision for individuals to be allocated, or deemed to have, a personal carbon allowance."

Lord Woolmer of Leeds: My Lords, it is agreed on all sides of the House that the Bill as it stands would permit the introduction of personal carbon allowances and trading on those or similar schemes, if the Government of the day were so minded, without fresh primary legislation. My proposition in summary is as follows: personal carbon trading allowances could be introduced under the Bill. The Government would not consider so introducing them because the implications of personal carbon allowances would be so great. However, so far they have not explained how else they would introduce personal carbon allowances. The Liberal Democrats have said, as I understand it, that not only are they in favour of personal carbon allowances but they would use this legislation to introduce them, were they ever in a position so to do. The Conservatives were silent, on balance, on where they stood. So the Front Benches of all three main political parties in this Chamber have talked about whether to use this legislation to introduce such schemes. My proposal is that the nature of a scheme based on personal carbon allowances would be so substantial in its ramifications, so significant, that fresh primary legislation should be introduced rather than introducing it on the back of this Bill with the enabling provisions that it permits.
	I do not wish to enter at all into the argument for or against personal carbon allowances. That is not the burden of my argument. Your Lordships may be in favour or against personal carbon allowances or trading in them. My argument is solely that the implications are so substantial, whether you are in favour or against those schemes, that primary legislation is required. First, and very briefly because these matters were discussed in Committee, I will touch on some of the issues involved in personal carbon allowances.
	Essentially these are allowances of carbon emissions—rations, quotas, permits, call them what you will—that would be allocated in some way to individuals. Would it be to all individuals, or just adults? Would children have more or less than adults? Would people get more or less in rural or urban areas, in the north of Scotland or the south of England? Who would get what? Would they be allocated free or would people have to in some way bid for them at auction? An independent body would need to be established to set the cap for the total amount of emissions that people were allowed to buy and to take the important decision about the emissions allowance allocated to each individual.
	The question arises of what goods and services would be included. If you bought a gallon of petrol, presumably you would have to hand over some of your carbon allowance, at least in theory and principle. Presumably, that would apply also to the purchase of gas, electricity, oil, coal, diesel and flights. Which flights would be caught? If you go from London to Dubai to Delhi and back again, would you hand over emissions allowances just for the London to Dubai leg, or for London to Dubai to Delhi, or all the way back again? How many carbon emissions allowances would each purchase use up? Would everybody get the same allocation? Would they be allocated to everybody just the same? If that were the case, what would be the effect on the distribution of income and living standards between people? How would we treat visitors to this country? How would we treat people who are here for a few months, weeks, days, or people who leave halfway through the year?
	How would these allowances be traded? Would people be able to trade and to buy and sell them? The presumption is that they would. I have seen a proposal that people would have something like a bank card or a debit card and a trading account like a bank account, and that when they bought and sold things their account would be credited or debited. How would this relate to the 15 per cent to 20 per cent of people who are known to have problems thinking ahead about how to use their money and handle their finances? People would have to think ahead very carefully about how much of their carbon allowance they wanted to use over the following 12 months. How would people work this out? I am not talking about the sophisticated Members of your Lordships' House but people who demonstrably have problems thinking ahead and budgeting.
	How secure would such accounts or debit cards be? How would you prevent fraud and scams occurring, particularly if people are buying and selling? How would you know that you were buying an accredited emissions allowance and that it was not a scam? Every purchase of a qualifying commodity, good or service made by an individual would be recorded and the records would be substantial. Many people are concerned about identity cards and this would raise many of the same issues.
	What would be the position of illegal immigrants—people in the black economy? How would they obtain these cards so that they could buy fuel? It would not be a question just of whether you can pay for your gas and electricity; you would have to hand over a ration or quota, which would have been allocated to you. You have to own that in some way.
	Defra commissioned a study, referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, by the Centre for Sustainable Energy to look at many of these matters. Pages 25 to 27 of the report consider the issues that would arise if these schemes were introduced. The relevant passage is headed:
	"The questions that need answers".
	I shall not read them all out because there are so many, but the relevant headings are:
	"Political acceptability ... Political/institutional viability ... Public reaction and 'acceptability' ... Market reaction ... Technical and operational feasibility".
	That is, would it actually work? What would it cost? What would be the effect on equity and justice? What would be the distributional impacts? The study states:
	"It is reasonable to say that, beyond some detailed assessment of the technical feasibility of individual carbon trading ... most of these questions remain unanswered (and, in much of the literature, unasked)".
	There is no doubt that if the Government of the day were minded to introduce personal carbon allowances it would raise an enormous range of issues which, I am sure, both Houses would want to debate fully, and not as regulations but as primary legislation. It might be said, "Don't worry, no Government would ever do this". The Government's answer so far is that the Bill has those powers but they think it inconceivable that the powers would be so used. I suggest that that is not a very good basis on which to conduct legislation. The Government have for some time been conducting a careful examination of whether to pursue personal carbon allowances and trading. This is not a hypothetical possibility; even the present Government are actively looking at it
	If the Government are looking so carefully at personal carbon allowances and a trading system based upon them and say that it is inconceivable that they would use this legislation to introduce them if their studies suggested it, what would they do? Do we have an assurance that they would introduce primary legislation? If that is the case, there should be no difficulty in accepting my amendment, which ensures that this Bill could not be used to introduce personal carbon allowances? However, if the Government say that they would still prefer to keep provision for this in the Bill, I suggest that that confirms my concern.
	I say again: I do not argue for or against personal carbon allowances and trading on them, but simply that they should not be enabled under this Bill. The Liberal Democrats said in Committee with, it is fair to say, a degree of vigour, that they were in favour. However, looking back at the record, it is not entirely clear whether they are in favour of personal carbon allowances in principle or whether they would use this legislation to introduce them if they had the opportunity. It is a very important distinction. The Conservatives were not, it is fair to say, prepared to be led by the Liberal Democrats. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, said that he did not want to lead us anywhere in particular on that evening.
	You could argue that the amendment is unnecessary because the Bill does not already facilitate this. Yes it does. You could argue that the amendment is unnecessary because no Government would ever use the legislation to do introduce such schemes—that is the Government's proposition—but that is not a very good basis for undertaking legislation, particularly when the Government are actively investigating the possibility and one of the Opposition parties is saying enthusiastically that it would do so. You could argue, as I do, that the issues are so substantial that the potential for bringing in personal carbon allowances and trading under the powers in this Bill should not be there. I ask your Lordships to reflect upon those matters. I beg to move.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, it seems to me, having listened carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, that the nightmare world that he has described as possible, should personal carbon allowances be introduced—whether by the Liberal Democrats or anybody else—makes the amendment essential. I hope that your Lordships will accept it.

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, in Committee I spoke from the Back Benches to my amendment on this interesting issue. I said that I welcomed the fact that Defra was funding a study into it and that the RSA and another think tank, the IPPR, were also doing studies into it. There is a lot of interest in whether some form of personal carbon allowance would be one of the mechanisms that could help us in the fight against climate change.
	I fully recognise that there will be difficult issues to be addressed, which is exactly why in-depth studies are being undertaken, but I do not agree with the picture painted by the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer of Leeds, which he has clearly transmitted to the noble Baroness, that it would be a nightmare. He is shaking his head because he agrees with me, I think, that it would not be a nightmare world, but that there are substantial difficulties to overcome.
	I do not want to go over all the arguments again this afternoon that I made in Committee in favour of at least looking seriously at personal carbon allowances and saying to the Government that there are communities, particularly transition towns, which are committed as communities to lowering their carbon usage. There are places that would really welcome being able to trial this when the current studies are complete. I am sure that there would be difficulties, but it is possible that this would actually be welcomed not by the people that the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, envisages—perhaps most of us in your Lordships' House fly more than we should so we would be very badly off under personal carbon allowances—but by the very people who he said would have difficulty in coming to grips with them. I do not think that they would have difficulty, because if such allowances were introduced, it would need to be in a very simple form.
	It would be a very bad move to go through legislation such as this, which is aimed at enabling things to happen, with a red pen, removing all the things that the Bill would make possible. The Government are right in not bringing forward their own amendment specifically to exclude personal carbon allowances, but I fully accept that far more studies need to be undertaken before any pilots such as those that I mentioned are undertaken. I ask the House not to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, and delete what may be a useful tool in the future.

Lord May of Oxford: My Lords, I have sympathy with the arguments put by the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, but on the other hand, as I have said before, this is a Bill for the long term. In World War 2 we had rationing—or, rather, you had; I was an infant in Australia—and I am sure it was difficult, but at the time it was necessary. It is not clear, as we approach the middle of the century—which is what the Bill is looking at—that we will not be in a position where something of wartime immediacy and urgency will be needed. For that reason I am certainly not urging that we put in the Bill something that says, "We will do this", but I find it odd that we should put in the Bill something that says, "We won't do this". That is why I hope that the amendment will not end up in the Bill.

Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, I shall take a similar line to the noble Lord, Lord May. At a conceptual level, there is nothing wrong with the idea of a ration book. In the Stern report, the global carbon account conceptually gives us one tonne each around the world. Therefore, in some conceptual sense, we can buy the 90 per cent of the African units that Africa does not need at the moment. It is a redistribution from the rich to the poor, which is a point that I will make on my later amendment. When it comes to a personal allocation that is administered by ration book, like during the Second World War—I remember the sweet ration—it is a leap into a totally different sphere. It would be counterproductive to lose sight of the value conceptually of everyone being entitled to one tonne of carbon and going down the road of the amendment, but I am very pleased that my noble friend Lord Woolmer has enabled us all to clarify the position.

Lord Turnbull: My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer. We are talking about something that operates like a carbon tax at consumer level, a CAT rather than a VAT. If you are going to do that you have to integrate it into the rest of the tax system. The feature of VAT is that it is a cascade tax in which you net off all the tax you paid at previous stages. With this arrangement we have no safeguard, so when you buy your litre of road fuel tax will already have been paid on it. On the subject of flights, we have passed an amendment bringing aviation within the scope of the ETS and so levying a charge on aviation. Are we then going to have something on top of that? It then has to be integrated into the social security system. I see no logic in paying my elderly mother-in-law a heating allowance and then requiring her to pay something on top of that. Conceptually, you could do all this at the consumer level, but what you cannot do is have hybrid systems.
	Why on earth does this need to come anywhere near this House? The Bill is for the longer term and it does not have to include everything we might possibly want to do over the next 50 years. There is plenty of time for people to develop the scheme, study it further, publish a White Paper, Green Paper or whatever, and then to come forward with legislation. I cannot understand why there needs to be anything at all which says whether you do it or not. There needs to be no mention whatever of this possibility. This possibility can arise by all sorts of other schemes in the course of the next 42 years and I think that is the way we should deal with it.

Lord Swinfen: My Lords, I am in favour of the noble Lord's amendment. It would be extremely difficult to produce a fair system of allowances. Take, for instance, two identical houses next door to each other, both with exactly the same insulation value. One is occupied by a single individual and the other is occupied by a family of two parents and, say, three children. The family with the two parents and three children could well have five times the allowance of the single person, assuming that the children get the allowance as well as adults. There is also the case of the allowances that will be required by people who are ill—chronically sick—who need additional heating and people who are disabled who need additional heating. There is also the fact that as one gets older, one feels the cold a great deal more. I am sure Members of the House will have noticed that. Elderly people will also need a greater carbon allowance. There is also the fact of travel to work and travel to buy one's daily necessities. If you live in a town, very often your work is close at hand and you can walk there. You do not need a carbon allowance for it. You may need a shoe leather allowance, but no Government are going to bring that forward. If you live in the country a mile and a half from any public transport, as I do, you need your own vehicle to go to get food and to go to work. Even though I attended your Lordships' House today using the train—public transport—I did need the car to get to the station and on to the public transport. It is going to be virtually impossible to produce a fair system of individual carbon allowances even if one takes no notice of airline flights divided between pleasure and business. I support the noble Lord and will support him in the Lobbies should he divide the House.

Lord Teverson: My Lords, we should remember here that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, is about whether personal carbon allowances should be allocated under this Bill. It is not about the question of whether personal carbon allowances are a good or bad thing. From the Liberal Democrat point of view, getting more decision-making on climate change down to individual level—whether it be through smart meters, education or other means—has to be a good thing. As individuals we must take part of the responsibility for a planetary problem.
	We are not saying that personal carbon allowances are Liberal Democrat policy. I was interested that the leader of the Official Opposition, I believe, raised this for public discussion in relation to aircraft and air miles—that is where it really became a public debate. I assure the House that the next Liberal Democrat Government will not introduce personal carbon allowances through this legislation. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, is correct. The proposal would be such a change to the way in which we operate in this country and it should not be done through this legislation. This whole area is being looked at and personal carbon allowances should be explored further. The policy should not be implemented through this Bill.
	My Lords, what came into my vision was the inability at one general election of the Liberal Democrats to explain their policy on local income tax; the idea of them trying to explain their policy on this at an election before the Liberal Government come in almost borders on preposterousness; but there we are.
	I am grateful to my noble friend for returning to this matter. It is not straightforward. My view is that it would be a rash and brave Minister who sought to introduce personal carbon allowances through this Bill at any time. I can imagine the debates and difficulties of doing so through secondary legislation; that is a complete non-starter. I say that as a parliamentarian rather than as a Minister.
	My noble friend asked a key question: if we are not going to do this through the Bill, why do we not use specific exclusion? There is an answer to that. When we dealt with this in Committee, my noble friend Lady Morgan of Drefelin set out the Government's position: that we do not envisage using the powers in this Bill to introduce a personal carbon trading scheme, but we are, as is known, in the process of gathering evidence better to inform us on the whole issue of personal carbon trading. One can see how complex that would be if one wants to go down that road; all the issues raised by my noble friend and others would have to be covered.
	We would prefer not explicitly to rule out personal carbon trading for now—in relation to this Bill—for two main reasons. The first is that the initial pre-feasibility work has not yet reported; and the long-term framework of the Bill means that personal carbon trading in future may represent a useful tool. That involves the Bill's long-term framework. In no way do I imply that the Bill will be used to do that but that long-term framework may give birth to other bits of primary legislation; there is no question about that.
	The second concern with this amendment—or any other amendment that is intended to rule out personal carbon trading—is that it might inadvertently have a broader effect. Personal carbon trading is a difficult concept to pin down, as we discovered in our short debate, and doing so in legislative terms would be incredibly complicated. If we tried in the Bill explicitly to exclude it we might in addition mistakenly exclude something else that we would not want to exclude. For example, the focus on individuals in this amendment may result in a business, which happened to be trading as a sole trader, being excluded from a trading scheme that was not in fact a personal carbon trading scheme. In the proposed carbon reduction commitment, participants will be identified on the basis of their electricity consumption. If this amendment were accepted, there is a risk that a sole trader could be exempted from the carbon reduction commitment.
	We also understand the concern in many quarters about the potential for personal carbon trading to be introduced through secondary legislation. It is a major concern but, as far as I am concerned, it will not happen. As I said, it would be a brave and also a rash Minister who sought to do that. That is not to say, because of the long-term nature of this Bill, that there cannot be a connection. The framework of the Bill goes to 2050 and therefore these issues will have to be debated. However, we have stated consistently that we do not intend to use the powers in the Bill to introduce personal carbon trading. I make it absolutely clear that personal carbon trading will not be introduced through the Bill. In addition, the Bill contains significant checks before a new trading scheme can be introduced—obviously the provision is there for trading schemes. These include the thorough parliamentary scrutiny and the affirmative procedure required for every new scheme, as well as consideration of the advice from the Committee on Climate Change.
	The pre-feasibility study is a concern for some noble Lords. This study aims to answer some key questions surrounding personal carbon trading and is expected by Ministers in the spring. Decisions will be taken then on the next steps. At any time, if this became a question to be seriously addressed, the Government would not envisage the introduction of such a scheme without a comprehensive period of public engagement, debate and consultation. As we have heard in the debate, in the examples given by noble Lords, this goes beyond anything that is actually in this Bill. That is why we do not want to exclude it, particularly in the way it is drafted. I am not nit-picking about the technicalities of the amendment. If you are going to do anything about personal carbon trading in the context of this Bill, it may have consequential side effects that would be unfortunate and that we do not envisage. I have given a clear commitment that personal carbon trading, in the sense understood by my noble friend, will not be introduced as a result of this Bill.

Lord Woolmer of Leeds: My Lords, some helpful remarks have been made in this brief discussion and debate. The issues are substantial and real, whether one is for or against them in the end. They are issues that go to the heart of politics, issues of public and personal concern—and of course of media concern. I would be amazed if MPs in the House of Commons did not think very carefully about the wording of the Bill and its implications. I hope that our discussions are taken careful note of there.
	I do not wish to go into the points that were raised about pros and cons, although I do have a great deal of sympathy with many of them, not least that of the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, about double counting and double costs. People who were asked to pay a carbon price on top of the price of their petrol and the current tax on it would be pretty fed up with the Government of the day. These are real issues. I was delighted to hear the Liberal Democrat Front Bench saying very firmly that, regardless of the pros and cons of carbon trading allowances, the Liberal Democrats would not use the powers of the Bill, when it is enacted, for that purpose. The Minister was equally forthright from the Government Front Bench. It is a pity for the future, however distant, that the Conservative Front Bench did not seem able to give the same assurance today. I hope that that can be put right elsewhere.
	The Minister said, in effect, that there is a drafting problem with the amendment. He was concerned that it might be drafted in a way that excluded things not of this nature that one might ultimately want to exclude. I will look carefully at that argument and see whether it might nevertheless be possible to draft something that deals with that problem. I think it is fair to say that there is overwhelming concern on all sides of the House that this legislation should not be used for introducing personal carbon allowances. I shall take this away and consider it carefully. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
	Schedule 2 [Trading schemes]:

Lord Davies of Oldham: moved Amendment No. 184:
	Schedule 2, page 44, line 18, after "Part" insert "of this Schedule"

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I move government Amendment No. 184 in the name of my noble friend Lord Rooker, and shall speak to government Amendments Nos. 185, 186 and 188 to 190. The amendments simply improve the drafting of Schedule 2 to make it clear whether references to "This Part" are references to the relevant part of the schedule or to Part 3 of the Bill. This is a straightforward tidying-up exercise, on which I hope I need not detain the House. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Davies of Oldham: moved Amendments Nos. 185 and 186:
	Schedule 2, page 48, line 10, at end insert "of this Act"
	Schedule 2, page 48, line 24, after "Part" insert "of this Schedule"
	On Question, amendments agreed to.

The Duke of Montrose: moved Amendment No. 186A:
	Schedule 2, page 49, line 18, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and insert—
	"(1) The regulations must identify the process to which persons undertaking activities to which the trading scheme may apply (the "participants") may submit to become authorised to carry out an approved activity."

The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 186A, I shall also speak to Amendments Nos. 186B to 186D, which are grouped with it. A member of my family is involved in carbon trading, but I have no financial interest in that.
	Just a week ago today, on the previous day on Report, we heard differing views from all sides of the House on what would produce the most effective and rapid increase in carbon emission savings, and on what was likely to be the best approach to show the way in our own economy. In the course of that argument, I listened with great fascination to the approach of the Minister, who emphasised:
	"It would be quite wrong to come along with a whole list of regulations now to snuff out innovation and ideas".—[Official Report, 11/3/08; col. 1426.]
	Earlier, he expressed his worries when he said that,
	"uncertainty comes about if there is to be regulation, covering everybody, as opposed to hundreds of private sector companies making decisions at any time in a framework of their choosing".—[Official Report, 11/3/08; col. 1424.]
	I think we all recognise that the Government have had huge ambitions to be seen as pace setters in making the world a less carbon-dependent place. In its paper, Consultation on the Recommendations of the Climate Change Simplification Project, Defra talks of the need,
	"to unlock the potential for cost effective carbon savings".
	The question today is: have the Government found all the opportunities that could be employed?
	I was interested to hear the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget speech in another place being full of how Britain is already the leading financial centre for carbon markets. Private initiative has meant that London is now the biggest global hub for the international trading of emissions. I am told that the UK is the leading country in the world on the approval of projects under the clean development mechanism, which is one of the Kyoto Protocol mechanisms to which the Minister referred on a previous occasion. The UK is also a global leader in the burgeoning industry for service providers in this arena. However, unlike at least 11 of our European neighbours, when faced with the challenge of the process for project-based mechanisms under joint implementation it has flatly refused to take on board what is likely to be one of the most innovative processes promoted under Kyoto and will still be under its successor agreement.
	We all know that cap and trade is still the prime mechanism being used to achieve carbon savings, but it is the ultimate in a top-down regulation mechanism. Under the Kyoto Protocol, an important role was given to bottom-up initiatives, where the market would be one of the forces providing a process of identifying and delivering cost-effective emission reduction opportunities.
	With these amendments we are trying to fill in that other part of the picture to which the Minister referred, but, in this case, where a lack of powers that are offered under the Bill could tend to snuff out innovation and ideas. The amendments are put forward in such a way as to give the Government scope to draw up a project-based mechanism which would operate solely within the United Kingdom. I have some detailed suggestions as to what application this could have, but I do not think that I shall bore the House with them now. These amendments would leave the choice entirely in the Government's hands.
	The Minister is probably aware that just two weeks ago the German Government launched a pilot project under the Kyoto joint implementation scheme within the state of North Rhine-Westphalia. This will encourage small and medium industrial sites and public buildings, many of which will be much smaller than those targeted under the carbon reduction commitment, to replace obsolete heating and steam producing boilers. The Government will issue the carbon credits that can be verified and sell them. They will then pay the money received to each facility in proportion to the savings that they have generated. Having seen the enthusiasm with which the present London administration embraces carbon saving policies, one can imagine that whoever finally wins the mayoral election could be eager for such an opportunity to embrace this kind of innovation for London.
	Will the Minister explain the Government's thinking on joint implementation? Under the Kyoto Protocol joint implementation, any sale of achieved carbon credits requires a surrender of the assigned amount units for what constituted the host country's initial allocation. Is the Government's reluctance driven by the fact that, in their initial calculations under the Kyoto Protocol, they tried to pitch the quantity of our existing carbon emissions so low that they are now terrified that any surrender of these assigned amount units would completely derail their efforts to reach the target that has been set out? It surely cannot be their anxiety because the verification under joint implementation is so much more rigorous than it is under the EU ETS. Or is it simply that because it is a bottom-up process, it produces an unquantifiable outcome? Anyway, the Treasury perhaps has been far too busy with the Budget to produce a considered opinion.
	Perhaps I am in some ways producing the same approach as the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, did on his scheme. But, as I mentioned earlier, the wording of these amendments should give the Government, under advice from the climate change committee, scope to design and implement a UK limited project-based mechanism, which is similar to joint implementation. Verification would be exactly the same as is likely to be required under the carbon reduction commitment and some rule would be required to ensure that it complied with the regulations on supplementarity.
	This could have three advantages. First, it would give scope for the innovative talents of British business to assess what they could do with the type of financial incentive that this would offer and thereby make up an area of the ground that the UK Government have lost in leading the international community in domestic climate policy and measures. Secondly, it would drive greater activity in cost-effective greenhouse saving within the UK economy, without involving the loss of credits to overseas. Thirdly, it would give the Government some idea of what the appetite and ability of British industry would be if they decided that participation in the fully fledged joint implementation process, or its successor, was desirable.
	Amendments Nos. 186A to 186C would amend paragraph 15 of Part 2 for the schemes encouraging activities to allow the Government to regulate both possible kinds of participants that are in mind. Amendment No. 186D would add a similar paragraph to Part 2, defining what will constitute a carbon credit to parallel paragraph 7, which exists under Part 1, for schemes limiting activities. I beg to move.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I accept that this is a complicated part of the Bill. I shall stick to my notes and will deal with it in two parts. Amendments Nos. 186A to 186D would amend the powers to make trading schemes under Part 2 of Schedule 2. This part is defined broadly in paragraph 12. Schemes can encourage any activities which reduce greenhouse gas emissions or which lead to the removal of greenhouse gases from the atmosphere. If the noble Duke's concern is that a particular type of beneficial activity could inadvertently be excluded from a trading scheme, I hope that I can offer him that reassurance. An example of such a scheme is the renewables obligation, and this scheme places obligations on electricity suppliers to supply a certain amount of their power—currently 6.7 per cent of total supply, rising to 7.9 per cent from 1 April—from renewable sources, such as wind or hydro-electricity generation.
	Part 2 of Schedule 2 is designed to allow schemes like the renewables obligation to be made in secondary legislation. These schemes encourage an activity by setting an overall target and enabling it to be met at least cost by allowing participants to trade with one another to meet their obligations. Paragraph 15(1) requires that the regulations directly or indirectly identify the scheme participants. It is, of course, vital that the participants are identified in the scheme rules to ensure that all those to whom it applies are aware of the requirements it places upon them; they may be included in the consultation process required by Clause 40. Amendment No. 186A would remove this basic but important element of the powers, and for that reason, the Government cannot accept it.
	Together, the effect of Amendments Nos. 186A to 186C would be that a scheme would have to contain details of a procedure by which participants would be authorised to carry out approved activities. Given that schemes under Part 2 of Schedule 2 are meant to encourage certain activities, we are not sure why separate authorisation and approval processes are required. I have listened carefully to what the noble Duke is seeking to achieve with these amendments, but Schedule 2 as drafted already provides the flexibility for the provisions that he is looking for.
	Paragraph 15(2) provides that participants may be identified by reference to any, or any combination of, criteria, so again this leaves it open for particular activities to be included in trading schemes, if that is desired. Paragraphs 17 and 19 of Schedule 2 already allow the relevant national authority to control what activities qualify for certificates and set out the circumstances in which trading is permitted. For example, this could be a process like that in place to determine the types of renewables that are eligible under the renewables obligation. We believe that these paragraphs will enable suitable safeguards to be put in place to ensure that participants and activities are controlled appropriately, while maintaining the flexible approach in these powers overall. If it is felt to be beneficial to include particular types of activity in a trading scheme, the Bill as drafted provides sufficient scope to allow this. On that basis, we cannot support the amendments.
	The noble Duke made a point about the Government being opposed to bottom-up schemes similar to joint implementation. The UK Emissions Trading Scheme, which ran from 2002 to 2006, was a voluntary domestic emissions trading scheme. Thirty-two direct participants opted into the scheme, representing a variety of organisations from energy intensive industries to the service sector, and encompassing both public and private sector companies, including the likes of BP, British Airways, Lafarge, Marks & Spencer and the Natural History Museum. By committing to reduce emissions, organisations were able to bid at auction for a proportion of the £215 million available as an incentive payment over the lifetime of the scheme. Together, direct participants agreed to reduce emissions by £3.96 million tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent by 2006.
	However, the results in 2006 show that direct participants achieved emission reductions of more than 7 million tonnes of carbon dioxide against the baseline since the start of the scheme in 2002. This shows that opt-in schemes do work, which is why we have included Part 2 of Schedule 2. I hope that reassures the noble Lord that we are keen to provide appropriate incentives to reduce emissions.
	Amendment No. 186D would add a new paragraph to Schedule 2 to allow the regulations to make provision for participants who undertake activities which reduce emissions or remove greenhouse gases from the atmosphere to receive credits that they can count towards their trading scheme obligations. I can assure the noble Lord that Part 2 of Schedule 2 will already allow that kind of provision to be made. In addition, paragraph 19 allows a suitable level of control over trading, while paragraph 20 allows interchange with other schemes where that is appropriate.
	I hope that, with those reassurances, the noble Duke will see that the objectives of these amendments are already provided for in the Bill as drafted, and I hope that he will not press his amendment.

The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that detailed and complicated answer, which will take a little studying to see how it all fits together. I was rather worried when I thought I understood the Minister to say that the regulations would not require participants to be approved, which might open the door to all sorts of things. It is certainly true that the UK Emissions Trading Scheme was a bottom-up scheme simply financed by the Government, and had nothing to do with the generation of carbon credits and allowing people to participate in a carbon credit scheme. If I am not mistaken, it was taken up by some very large interests. The joint implementation scheme I am talking about could encompass a lot of small programmes and small participants.
	I am reassured to learn that Part 2 allows for the generation of carbon credits if one of the schemes were to come in. I shall take this amendment away and see whether I need to bring it back at a later stage. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
	[Amendments Nos. 186B to 186D not moved.]
	[Amendment No. 187 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]

Lord Rooker: moved Amendments Nos. 188 to 190:
	Schedule 2, page 51, line 7, at end insert "of this Act"
	Schedule 2, page 52, line 42, after "Part" insert "of this Act"
	Schedule 2, page 53, line 10, after "Part" insert "of this Act"
	On Question, amendments agreed to.
	Clause 40 [Procedure for making regulations]:

Lord Rooker: moved Amendment No. 191:
	Clause 40, page 20, line 4, at end insert—
	"( ) imposing or providing for the imposition of new financial or other penalties or increasing the amount of existing financial penalties,"

Lord Rooker: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 191 and 192 provide for a further rebalancing of the relationship between the Government, Parliament and the Committee on Climate Change. These amendments make two changes from the negative to the affirmative resolution procedure and will ensure that the role of Parliament is expanded. They also respond to recommendations made by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of your Lordships' House. Amendment No. 191 will ensure that trading scheme regulations which introduce new or increased civil penalties are subject to the affirmative procedure under the list of matters set out in subsection (3). Amendment No. 192 will ensure that the first use of the appeal provision in the trading scheme regulations is also subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. Again, this follows a recommendation to this effect from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I beg to move.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, these amendments give new order-making powers which sound like they should be welcomed. However, I feel that we need further clarification before the full support of this side of the House can be offered. The amendments allow the Secretary of State to make regulations that would impose new financial penalties or increase the existing penalties under trading schemes. In the first instance, this seems an improvement. Indeed, fees and penalties may be necessary tools in ensuring that trading schemes are taken seriously and not simply ignored. We do not want to be in a situation where businesses think it worth while to pollute as normal because the penalties are not robust enough to make them change their ways. However, I think that such a scenario is unlikely, as cost savings and competitor and consumer pressures are all drivers for responsible businesses to take carbon emissions seriously.
	Notwithstanding, I welcome the fact that these regulatory orders will be subject to affirmative procedure. Any time the Government start discussing charging individuals or businesses, there needs to be a mechanism for thorough scrutiny. We need to ensure that any order that might create through regulation new fees for business is examined as closely as possible.
	Can the Minister clarify his position towards imposing penalties? In what circumstances does he see these powers being exercised? Does he feel that there will be a need initially to increase the penalties on businesses for missing targets? Essentially, what is the purpose of inserting this new power? It would be helpful for everyone to understand more clearly how the imposition of fines will work in relation to the trading schemes. Does he foresee a substantial shift in the amount of fines that will be levied? What measures will have been taken to inform the business community about the Government's position on the future of fees and emissions?
	This also brings to mind the way in which business's commitment will be calculated. If there is not a robust mechanism for measuring and reporting on emissions, how can business be asked to be held to account in a proper fashion? The National Audit Office review on UK greenhouse gas emissions, published this week, noted that the Government currently use two different methods of calculating our national emissions, one which includes the pollution from aviation, and the other, which does not. Unsurprisingly, each method produces considerably different results. The NAO report rightly criticises the Government for then using both sets of data interchangeably, even within the same document, to produce a statistic favourable to their current argument. Surely such an a la carte approach to emissions accounting is anathema to responsible business, which needs consistency and market clarity above all else. How are business emissions to be calculated? Will the Government specify the ways in which emissions must be calculated before they decide on the mechanism for levying fees? That seems essential. Will the ground continually be moving under the feet of responsible business?
	Before many of the orders to be made under this Bill are carried out—and it seems that most of what will happen under the Bill will have to come through orders—a firm system should be in place to address the issues in the NAO review. The issue of financial penalties is a choice example of how unclear reporting procedures will lead to a bungled application of the measures intended to curb emissions. Though it might sound a bit tangential, it is very important to this amendment that we have clear assurances on how the Government intend to handle the issues presented in the NAO report. In general terms, how do the Government plan to make regulations to reduce emissions when it is unclear what those emissions are?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I apologise if I overstepped the mark here, but I have simply moved two government amendments the only purpose of which is to change the procedure under the Bill, at the point when action is taken, from the negative procedure to the affirmative procedure. I have not changed any powers whatever in the Bill. Nothing has changed. That is all that has happened. In these two amendments we have simply changed Parliament's voting powers so that Parliament can deal with these issues under the affirmative resolution.
	The issues which the noble Lord raised go way beyond these two amendments. If we were in Committee I would probably have a wad of notes saying how we might operate this. On the other hand I might be advised that we will not know until the situation arises. But all I have done here is to ensure—on the very issues which the noble Lord raised—that Parliament has the opportunity of a debate under the affirmative procedure when these powers are used, rather than it being slipped through under the negative procedure. I say "under the negative procedure" as though that does not matter, but the Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee will always look at these issues and draw the House's attention to them if it thinks that we have got them wrong. All the issues that the noble Lord raised would rightly be raised in such a debate and in a vote under the affirmative procedure. I cannot go into any other detail on the issues he raised.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Rooker: moved Amendment No. 192:
	Clause 40, page 20, line 7, at end insert—
	"( ) Regulations under this Part are subject to affirmative resolution procedure if they are the first such regulations to contain provision under paragraph 31 of Schedule 2 (appeals)."
	On Question, amendment agreed to.
	Clause 48 [Report on impact of climate change]:

Lord Rooker: moved Amendment No. 193:
	Clause 48, page 21, line 30, leave out from "lay" to "containing" in line 31 and insert "reports before Parliament"

Lord Rooker: Government Amendments Nos. 193, 198 and 204 delete the words "from time to time" in Clauses 48, 49 and 50 and then tidy up the grammar. We are making these amendments to reassure noble Lords that we understand the urgency of adapting to climate change, and I hope this will clear up some of the confusion over the reporting timetable set out in Clause 48(2) and (3).
	On government Amendment No. 202, as I set out during our earlier debates, the Government believe that Parliament is the body best placed to scrutinise progress on adaptation to climate change. To ensure that there can be proper scrutiny, we need to ensure that regular progress updates are provided to Parliament on how we are doing in addressing the impacts of climate change.
	We have listened to concerns raised in Committee and therefore have tabled government Amendment No. 202, which requires mid-term reporting on progress in implementing the adaptation programme—that is, no later than 30 months after the last programme was laid before Parliament. These new mid-term reports will contain an assessment of the progress made towards implementing the objectives, proposals and policies set out in the five-yearly programme. We believe that the mid-term report is an appropriate response as it will provide more regular updates to Parliament. It also ensures that we can maintain a long-term approach to adaptation, balancing reporting needs with efforts on delivery.
	I turn now to the other amendments in this group, Amendments Nos. 194, 196 and 199. While I appreciate the concerns that we need to ensure that we can quickly identify and respond to the more immediate climate tasks, we do not believe that these amendments are the correct way to achieve that. Amendment No. 199, calling for yearly updates on the programme, is unnecessary. The Government's amendments to the Bill, and the usual departmental reporting processes, will ensure that Parliament receives regular updates on progress of the programme.
	There must be policy continuity. The national programme for action is unlikely to be overhauled on a yearly basis, and we need to allow sufficient time for the measures to take effect. Reporting fully every 30 months, as in the Government's amendments, is therefore a more measured approach.
	I thank the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, for raising in our previous discussions the possibility of using departmental reports to provide further information to Parliament and strengthen its ability to hold the Government to account on progress. We have considered this, and can reassure your Lordships' House that Defra's annual departmental report will provide updates to Parliament on the government-wide adaptation programme. Across government, where the impacts of climate change are likely to affect the delivery of the departmental public service agreement targets, other departments would be expected to report on this issue as part of standard reporting practice.
	I am unable to accept the proposals for yearly risk reporting under Clause 48 as set out in Amendment No. 194. That would compromise the need to build an accurate evidence base on which we can develop policies. As I explained in Committee, we firmly believe that it will not be possible to produce a comprehensive risk assessment more frequently than every five years. This is an immensely complicated and comprehensive piece of work and the scientific data and computing capacity are not available to provide meaningful updates to the climate models more regularly than every five years.
	Adaptation requires a long-term approach. However, we recognise that there is a need to asses more immediate risks and to manage emergency responses. To inform medium-term planning, the Cabinet Office already undertakes a yearly national risk assessment process looking at all major risks to the United Kingdom, such as outbreak of pandemic flu or chemical spills and so on. This is focused on a five-year timeframe and is not so heavily reliant on the climate change science. The risks from flooding, for example, are currently routinely considered as part of the UK's risk management processes. A programme of work to address some of the risks at national level is detailed on the UK Resilience website. A separate process of annual risk reporting would duplicate this process and is therefore unnecessary. We will of course ensure that the Cabinet Office process is informed by the longer-term risk assessment and national programme under Clauses 48 and 49, and vice versa.
	We also need to maintain flexibility on reporting in order to respond to other work being done internationally or to major events, and to align national reporting with our international commitments, which is likely to be every four or five years. That is why we cannot accept Amendment No. 196, which would remove our ability to respond to new developments, events or advances in science. As I said in Committee, we want to reassure noble Lords that the Government have plans in place to fully meet the reporting requirements and we do not expect to have to extend the reporting period.
	On that basis we feel that the Bill's existing provisions for risk reporting, coupled with our proposed new amendments, are appropriate, will provide the best information and will allow for a comprehensive response. It would be futile, self-defeating and a waste of taxpayers' money to produce the risk assessment more regularly.
	I therefore hope that noble Lords will accept that we listened to what was said in Committee, and that they will take on board the assurance about departmental reports to Parliament and the fact that the Defra report will cover the government-wide approach. Taken together as a package, the Cabinet Office national risk assessment process, picking up the short-term risks, and the government amendment on mid-term reporting will provide robust scrutiny of how well we are dealing with the impacts of climate change. I beg to move.

Lord Haskel: I have to tell your Lordships that if Amendment No. 193 is agreed, I cannot call Amendment No. 194 because of pre-emption.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, we welcome the Government's willingness to report on the efforts they are making to mitigate the impacts of climate change; as the Minister pointed out, that is largely the effect of these amendments. The necessity of such a programme now seems finally to have been met with the equal necessity of informing Parliament about the progress of its implementation. We welcome that.
	There is still a curious feature in the government amendments in this group. There is no real time constraint on these reports. The government amendments require successive reports to be laid before Parliament at least every 30 months—two and a half years—after a programme has been created. For the report to be meaningful, it must come some time after the programme has been implemented. However, there is no timeframe for the programme. Is two years long enough? Surely the progress could be tracked in a shorter timeframe. Can the Minister explain how, for example, he arrived at 30 months?
	These amendments refer also to the section on reports on the impact of climate change. What will be the frequency of the reports? Our amendments propose yearly reports. In introducing his amendments, the Minister said that one year on data collection is not long enough for reportable differences to be noticed. But the government amendments remove the timeframe altogether. The Secretary of State also has in the Bill the power to delay the report for as long as he likes provided he publishes a statement saying why. That is unacceptable. There is a need for stronger provisions to ensure that this information is regularly and thoroughly reported on. The government amendments do not seem to go quite far enough.

Baroness Byford: My Lords, before the Minister responds to my noble friend, will he clarify his initial contribution? I understand that the Government clearly accept that they will come forward with something every 30 months. The Minster then spoke of other departments feeding into the system, headed up by the Cabinet review every five years. I do not quite understand how you could get those two views together, when one is on a 30-month basis and the other, if I understand the Minister correctly, is on a five-year rotation. I would be glad if the Minister could clarify that.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, following what my noble friend has just said, when the Minister talks about the input from government departments—which is obviously extremely important—does that include the devolved Administrations? As we have been saying constantly at various stages of the Bill, so many of the matters being referred to are devolved. Will those Administrations be required to feed in to these reports in the way that government departments have? Have they agreed to do that already? Will it work all right? Can the Minister clarify that as well?

Lord Teverson: My Lords, in Committee we proposed that these reports should be annual. From that discussion, that is not the best way forward and 30 months is the right period for adaptation reports. I therefore welcome the government amendments.

Lord Oxburgh: My Lords, I, too, think that 30 months would be the right reporting period, for the reasons given. Can the Minister assure the House that the Government will receive information in sufficient detail for these reports to be significant? On flooding, for example, the responsibilities for the management of drains and waterways are dispersed around the country, ranging from individual landowners, farmers and city councils to river authorities and what have you. Only one has to fail in its responsibilities for the whole system to come apart. I would be grateful for assurance and advice on that.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I hope that I can be brief. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, asked why it was 30 months. Basically, that is half of five years. Annually is too frequent; the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, has accepted that. We thought that we could come up with a sufficient review mid-term.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Byford, asked about the Cabinet. The Cabinet Office undertakes these risk assessments already. That is part of the ongoing process of resilience and preparation for all kinds of issues, some of which it would probably be quite wrong to read out for serious reasons. I gave the examples of pandemic flu and flooding or chemical spills. These are major issues which are ongoing as part of the government operation for the public good, to be as prepared as possible for all these issues. However, that is more short-term in the sense that it is looked at annually, in the context of the five years we have worked on, the two-and-a-half year interim reports and the annual checks as a package. That is almost my last paragraph about the departmental reports.
	I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, that the Bill is approved by the devolved Administrations. In the departmental reports, I therefore take it that I am covering that acceptance—in the departmental reports of the Scottish Executive or the Welsh Assembly Government, or the Scottish Office in terms of Whitehall—and that this information will be covered and put in the public domain.
	My earlier point was that Defra's annual report will cover all the government departments so that everything is in one area, except for where the public service agreement targets have to be looked at. It is much better for one report to cover everything. Although Defra may be leading on this, this is a government-wide Bill. My only answer to the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, is that the Government will be responding to the report on last year's flooding by Sir Michael Pitt. There were two excellent reports and the interim report certainly went into great detail. He mentioned how all the various bodies involved in potential flooding have to be clarified and how failure by one, whether it is the Environment Agency, local authority drainage, the water companies or the internal drainage boards, throws the effect on the others. The protection of towns against flood risk causes flooding elsewhere. One has to be aware of that and prepared for it before one starts the flood risk process. Those matters will be fully covered in the Government's response to that flooding report which will probably lead to a redivision of responsibilities in due course.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, with regard to this information being collected, the Scottish Parliament has its own departments. They will all have to collect information before the Scottish Parliament can feed into this Defra report. That is all going to take time and be quite complicated. Have the Government faced up to that? I am just trying to be practical; I am not trying to put a spoke in the wheel. But collecting this information is not just about government departments sitting around the Cabinet table. Departments in Scotland will all have to feed in. Do the Government recognise that?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I cannot speak in great detail on this but the reality of devolution is devolution. There is a Parliament in Scotland holding the Executive to account. This Bill will affect the devolved Administrations and the national authorities, but the Parliament in Scotland is the body to hold the Scottish Executive to account, not this House. All I have said is that this is a package Bill agreed with the devolved Administrations. The appropriate procedures as to how the departments of the Scottish Executive report to the Scottish Parliament are for them. But the information will be collected and it will have to be published at some point.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Haskel: My Lords, I cannot call Amendment No. 194.

Lord Teverson: moved Amendment No. 194A:
	Clause 48, page 21, line 31, leave out from "Kingdom" to end of line 32 and insert "including the risks of damage to or deterioration of the environment including biodiversity, living organisms and the ecological systems of which they form part, and nature resources; and of the current and predicted impact of climate change"

Lord Teverson: My Lords, we discussed at some length in Committee the areas of biodiversity, ecology and the environment. These areas are not often mentioned in the Bill as a whole and we feel strongly still that they need to be specifically mentioned. Having listened to the debate in Committee, we have been very modest in our ambitions to include, under the section on reporting and adaptation, the environment, biodiversity, in particular, and ecological systems. We feel that it is vital that these areas are introduced into the Bill and we are disappointed that the Government have not fielded their own amendments on this. I am also speaking to Amendments Nos. 200 and 201. I beg to move.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, this amendment is very similar to one that we tabled in Committee. We are thus happy to support the ideas behind it. It is absolutely essential to take account of the broad range of impacts of climate change and, indeed, the impacts of the policies which combat it. This broader sense must include the impact on the actual environment and its inhabitants; that is, the report should include the impact on society and on the health and well-being of populations—in other words, biodiversity.
	Climate change has far-reaching effects, and the wider our understanding, the better the proposals. Thus, appreciating the impacts on ecosystems and the environment should be a fundamental consideration in the development of policy. We want to ensure that we are preserving the very thing we are trying to protect.
	Our amendment that was debated in Committee differs from the Liberal Democrat amendment in that the latter has a significant omission—the economy. Including economic considerations is an important aspect if we are to appreciate the full extent of the impacts of policy. Our relationship with the environment and, indeed, that of populations all over the world, is very closely entwined with economic concerns, or perhaps more aptly, there is always an economic context which, understood and properly reported, could play an enormously beneficial role in the preservation of the environment and our fight against climate change. We cannot ignore a substantial factor that covers decision-making and we feel that this report should recognise that fact. Thus, we are immensely sympathetic to the concerns of this amendment and the arguments expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, but we believe that its scope could have been slightly wider. Will the Minister explain his approach to biodiversity? Does he feel that it should be part of the report?

Lord Jay of Ewelme: My Lords, I support the amendment. Like the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, I feel that biodiversity is not sufficiently recognised in the Bill. It is an aspect of climate change on which there is great public interest and therefore I believe that an amendment of this kind would have widespread public support. As I say, I support the amendment.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, it is incredibly unfair that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, spoke to these amendments for less than a minute, whereas my response will make me sound like an old windbag as it will be considerably longer. These are amendments of substance. I am not criticising his response, but it is a shame that it took less than a minute because it will make me look as though I am speaking for too long. I shall deal with them in—

Lord Teverson: My Lords, I did not add to my speech as we discussed this issue thoroughly in Committee. Consequently, I was trying to be brief.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, my response will probably be briefer than in Committee, but it must be read out for the purposes of people outside your Lordships' House as well as the other place.
	On Amendment No. 194A, I reassure the House once again, as I hope I did in Committee, that the Government develop their policies and deliver their services within the overarching concept of sustainable development. As your Lordships know, we define "sustainable development" as living within environmental limits and achieving a just society by means of a sustainable economy, good governance and sound science. This is why Clause 49(2) already requires the adaptation programme to contribute to sustainable development.
	Amendment No. 194A would insert a reference to the environment in relation to the risk report under Clause 48. As I have said, the report will be thorough and comprehensive. It will look at the risks from climate change, and the associated vulnerabilities to these risks for the United Kingdom, including risks to the environment, the economy and society. Amendment No. 194A focuses exclusively on the environment and does not give due consideration to social or economic impacts in the risk assessment.
	We recognise that the natural environment provides economic and welfare benefits for human beings, as well as having an intrinsic value in itself. The natural environment will change as a result of climate change, and your Lordships can be reassured that adequate protection for the natural environment will underpin our efforts on both adaptation and mitigation. In developing the risk report in particular, we will draw on the environmental experts from the Environment Agency and Natural England, among others.
	We think that it is better that the Secretary of State has a duty to assess all the risks for the United Kingdom, rather than having specific risks listed. As it stands, Clause 48(1) already requires an assessment of,
	"the risks for the United Kingdom",
	arising from climate change. That covers all potential risks, including those factors proposed in the amendments, and therefore the provision is already as wide as it could possibly be. For example, where would the risks to the built environment fit within Amendment No. 194A, and what about the wider important issues, such as the opportunities from climate change and the roles and responsibilities of organisations? If we list some factors, we leave ourselves open to having to list everything, which is not possible given the wide-ranging effects. Under Amendment No. 194A, we might end up focusing too much on some things at the expense of others. I do not know what the amendment adds to existing powers.
	I shall jump to Amendment No. 200. The amendment would not have any notable effect as it asks that the objectives of the Government's adaptation programme take into account the risks identified under Clause 48. But the last line of Clause 49(1) already requires that the programme, as a whole, addresses,
	"the risks identified in the most recent report under section 48".
	So that amendment does not stand the test to be added to the Bill.
	I was asked specifically about biodiversity. The Government have already established an adaptation workstream, as part of the England biodiversity strategy, to promote adaptation of relevant policies and programmes in all relevant sectors, including agriculture, forestry, water management and land use planning. The workstream is developing a set of adaptation principles, which will be adopted across all sectors where those implementing conservation management will use them to plan what actions they wish to take to help the natural world adapt to climate change.
	We seek win-win situations that deliver benefits for biodiversity as well as allowing for mitigation and enabling adaptation in other sectors. Where those solutions are not possible we need to minimise negative impacts on biodiversity, so we are aware of that where we cannot get the win-win solutions. On behalf of the UK Biodiversity Partnership, Defra published practical guidance on adaptation for nature conservation in a changing climate in May last year, entitled Conserving Biodiversity in a Changing Climate. That sets out six guiding principles for those who plan and deliver conservation of terrestrial biodiversity. We are aware of the issue and, we hope, are on the case.
	Amendment No. 201 suggests including a more detailed definition of "adaptation" in the Bill. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change currently uses the definition suggested. As I said in Committee, we have not defined "adaptation" within the Bill because we do not think it necessary to do so. The Oxford English Dictionary defines "adaptation" as,
	"the process of modifying a thing so as to suit new conditions".
	That seems to us to be perfectly adequate. The Government also believe that the ordinary meaning of "adaptation" is clear and simple and see no need to introduce new definitions within a legislative context.
	Although the IPCC—I hate saying that—the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's definition is a recognisable definition, and we are not disputing its validity, the danger of having more than one definition of an ordinary word is that it can change the focus in ways which are not necessarily helpful. Taking into account both the threats and opportunities presented by climate change is already covered by the ordinary meaning of "adaptation". If we include this extra definition in the Bill, how do we know that the intergovernmental panel will not update its definition of "adaptation" between now and 2050, although it beggars belief that we will not come to amend this Bill before 2050 for other reasons? I say that but I do not place great weight on that point.
	We are, however, prepared to offer as a political commitment that we will refer to the IPCC's definition of adaptation within the statutory guidance under Clause 51. We intend to consult on the guidance when the UK Climate Impacts Programme scenarios are released later this year, and following that process we will have a better idea of what organisations will be using the guidance that we will be seeking and what would be most useful for them. So it would be used in the context of the guidance, but it does not make sense to transpose it into the Bill.

Baroness Byford: My Lords, the Minister referred to the adaptation report, which came out in May 2007. Presumably, much of that work was done before the climate changes that we experienced last year. I think the Minister will accept that there is enormous pressure on the balance between being able to produce enough food and having food security and the interests of biodiversity and the longer term. I wonder whether the Government have had a review of that document since then, reflecting on the changes that have taken place since last May when the report came out. Clearly, in our country, we are under huge pressures to balance what we need to do to have a vibrant economy and a society that can fulfil itself and our responsibility to the wider nature of wildlife and biodiversity.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I do not know, but I suspect and hope that the answer is no; otherwise we are spending loads of time in committees on Whitehall. That document was published last May, which is less than 12 months ago. It set out guiding principles for those who plan and deliver conservation of terrestrial biodiversity. It summarised the current thinking on how to reduce the impacts of climate change on biodiversity and how to adapt existing plans and projects in the light of climate change. With less than 12 months since the publication of those guiding principles, I suspect that it has not been reviewed because it has not been found necessary to do so.

Lord Teverson: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. I was quite persuaded by his reply on Amendment No. 201; I was positively impressed by it. I will not move that amendment.
	Biodiversity and ecology are different from the social and economic issues. Clearly, they all have to be taken into consideration. There are huge lobbies and huge areas of government policy on the economy and the social infrastructure of the country for those to be taken fully into account without writing them into the legislation. I do not think that is the case for biodiversity. That is not in any way a criticism of the Government's awareness and continued efforts in that area, but it is something that needs to be in the Bill, and it needs to be emphasised in this area. We have cut down all the other references to it and therefore it is essential that an area such as biodiversity, which is very much under the radar screen in public understanding and probably in general administrative understanding, should be there. On that basis, I should like to test the opinion of the House.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 194A) shall be agreed to?
	Their Lordships divided: Contents, 78; Not-Contents, 145.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
	[Amendment No. 195 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]
	[Amendment No. 196 not moved.]

Lord Teverson: moved Amendment No. 197:
	Clause 48, page 22, line 2, at end insert—
	"( ) The Secretary of State must invite the House of Commons Environmental Audit Committee to review every report laid before Parliament under this section."
	On Question, amendment agreed to.
	Clause 49 [Programme for adaptation to climate change]:

Lord Rooker: moved Amendment No. 198:
	Clause 49, page 22, line 4, leave out from "lay" to "setting" in line 5 and insert "programmes before Parliament"

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I beg to move.

Lord Colwyn: My Lords, if this amendment is agreed to, I will not be able to call Amendment No. 199 owing to pre-emption.

On Question, amendment agreed to.
	[Amendments Nos. 199 to 201 not moved.]

Lord Rooker: moved Amendment No. 202:
	After Clause 49, insert the following new Clause—
	"Report on progress in connection with adaptation
	(1) It is the duty of the Secretary of State to lay reports before Parliament containing an assessment of the progress made towards implementing the objectives, proposals and policies set out in the programmes laid before Parliament under section 49.
	(2) Each report under this section must be laid before Parliament no later than 30 months after the last programme under that section was so laid.
	(3) The Secretary of State must send a copy of each report under this section to the other national authorities."
	On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Lea of Crondall: moved Amendment No. 203:
	After Clause 49, insert the following new Clause—
	"The Carbon Tax Industrial and Consumer Impact Forum
	(1) There shall be a body to be known as the Carbon Tax Industrial and Consumer Impact Forum ("the forum").
	(2) The forum shall include representatives from Her Majesty's Government, employer groups, trade unions and consumer organisations.
	(3) It is the duty of the forum to produce a report advising the Secretary of State, in relation to each budgetary period, on the impact of each sector of the economy, including transport, manufacturing and services, of meeting the carbon budget for that period.
	(4) The forum must also propose to the Secretary of State measures to ameliorate the impacts identified in its report.
	(5) The forum must give due regard to—
	(a) increases in the taxation of carbon,(b) changes in relative costs and prices between different sectors of the economy, and(c) the role of the European Globalisation Adjustment Fund.
	(6) For each budgetary period, the forum must produce its report not later than six months after the carbon budget for that period has been set."

Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, this Bill, for reasons that I will adduce, is like Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark. Filling the gap, which I believe is well within the Bill's scope, would link the carbon budget to budgets in the more usual sense of that word. My amendment concerns the price tag and the means of delivery of these carbon targets. Ministers have two options. One is to deploy whatever arguments are necessary to prove to their satisfaction that it is the wrong amendment, on the wrong Bill, at the wrong time. But as events unfold, I am more and more certain that it is only a matter of time before the principle is accepted as an essential, umbilically linked part of the carbon budgeting at the heart of this Bill.
	The second alternative, which I would prefer, is to accept it as an idea whose time has come. This leads to my second main point, which follows inexorably from the first. It is the case for a degree of hypothecation. In other words, a system whereby people can see how carbon taxation money—when I say carbon taxation money, I am referring here and throughout my speech to taxation and related instruments—is being spent successfully, passing carbon reduction milestones on the road map at the right time. Politically, in my opinion, this is a no-brainer—but there has been some temporary switching off of brains in HMG on this so far. However, it is only a matter of time before it is brought forward and I would rather a Labour Government did it properly than someone else tried to do it after acrimonious discussion.
	Hypothecation can also be useful in revealing the degree to which the programme can be budget-neutral overall. In other words, taxes in area A could be offset by taxes in area B. This is subject to the qualification that the overseas account, which is the net balance of receipts or payments on overseas credits from the EU Emissions Trading Scheme and so on, will need to be slotted into the UK budget, where the ultimate incidence will lie. Of course there will be the question of what will be in and what will be out of this financial carbon accounting.
	One or two examples are very familiar to us. Money from the London congestion charge is going into improvements in public transport. Earlier, the Labour Party objected to it: was it okay for the driver of a Rolls Royce to scatter £50 notes along Piccadilly, pricing the Ford Escort full of lesser breeds off the road? On due reflection, it started to appreciate that, with hypothecation, all those £50 notes would be pushed into public transport. That was the argument of John Prescott and Ken Livingstone—bless them both—among others. It therefore had a socially progressive, redistributive element to it. We are now seeing the increased use of differential taxation rates for motor cars being adopted more widely, not necessarily via congestion charging but, as in last week's Budget, nationwide, with road tax biting differentially on different sizes of engine.
	In transport more generally, we have the taxation of road versus rail freight. Such a non-transparent set of taxation arrangements needs to be set out in a proper accounting system. I welcome the consultation exercise on this at the present time, and I think the results will be conducive to a further step forward in the share of rail freight in our freight transport system.
	One could go from home heating to aviation, shipping and so on, not to mention plastic bags, but the central point about the consolidation and transparency of carbon tax accounting as a whole is that now is the time for government to step up to the plate before others do. If we are to treat the public as adults, we need an adult transparent accounting system for the income and expenditure on the carbon account. That and the straightforward questions and answers that will flow from it will go part of the way to winning hearts and minds. Otherwise, we will not have a cat in hell's chance of achieving this vast shift from a positive growth coefficient of carbon as the economy goes forward to a negative one. The first thing to avoid, therefore, is being accused of selling a pig in a poke.
	Ministers may be nervous about a full-frontal approach to presenting this, but let me distinguish first the technical level and secondly the level of the man and the woman in the pub in Burton-on-Trent. This sort of two-legged approach to looking at public policy was a very useful idea that we always bore in mind when we wrote policy papers at the TUC—of course, the TUC was and remains a paragon of all administrative virtues.
	At the first level, I assume that Ministers are paying a lot of regard to the Stern report's implied hypothesis—it might have been helpful if the Minister had been a little more explicit, but it is there in all the research papers—that choking off demand is largely to do with price, which in turn can be effected in a number of ways through taxes and subsidies, which are on the same Treasury balance sheet.
	I was interested in the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, on the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, in that the examples that he immediately touched on related to taxation. There can be no doubt that taxation will be at the centre of the stage and that the statistical conventions will be hard to determine. Taxation will not do the whole job, but will do a large part of it—I would say more than 50 per cent of it—but I will be interested to hear whether the Minister thinks that I am in the wrong ball park. The carbon tax forum would be able to commission studies about the price elasticities in different markets. The price elasticity for domestic heating may well be different from the price elasticity of carbon for air travel. I am still a bit of a sceptic about this, until more evidence is available to compare apples with apples. The example of doubling of demand for air travel after halving an air fare can be the same elasticity as putting up petrol by 10p a litre and seeing a slight reduction in growth. The scale of the price is different, and that is all. I should like to see that examined. At the second level, the forum would perhaps need to have something like a road show visiting Burton-on-Trent. I remember doing that in 1965 on the retrospectively, much-derided national plan, but it was a highly productive exercise.
	I need to say something about how my amendment fits into the Bill as far as Whitehall is concerned. A few days ago, I rang the Treasury to find out whether it would be briefing a Minister to reply to my amendment. But it said that all these matters were with Defra. I pressed the point and said, "Do you mean that all these taxation and subsidy questions are being decided by Defra?". The man concerned obviously wanted to get me off the phone and said, "All these matters are being dealt with by Defra", and that was the end of the conversation. No one believes that, and I sympathise with the Minister, for whom I have the very highest regard, as he knows, and who has been in the wars recently on so many fronts. Having to respect this line is another cross that he has to bear, but it is one which all of us would have to take up if we were Ministers.
	In that connection, I know that some noble Lords have thought that the answer to all this is for the Prime Minister or the Chancellor to chair the Committee on Climate Change. I think that that is the wrong question and certainly is not the rationale of my amendment. The climate change committee has a big job on its hands and I largely agree with the Government's line about not overloading it. But there is another big job to do on what might be called the executive action side, which is for the Government.
	If our discussions are to be successful, we must turn to taxation, which raises its ugly head at every turn. No one will want to pay these taxes with great enthusiasm and there will be all sorts of stealth taxes. But that is precisely why we should take the initiative to demonstrate that these are not stealth taxes. They are open taxes, which are openly arrived at after very clear discussion, including with those who will be affected; that is, business and workers' representatives, as well as consumers and so on. That is where the Prime Minister and the Chancellor indubitably have a great responsibility. As we saw last week—this also concerns the Prime Minister—there will be the European dimension: hence, my inclusion in the amendment a reference to the European Globalisation Adjustment Fund. It is in everyone's interests to work closely with colleagues in the EU on this.
	But there is the bigger picture of the European dimension in trading and taxation. In 1999, my maiden speech was on the need for a common approach to European energy taxation. Only this past week, as confirmed by the Prime Minister's Statement to Parliament, yesterday, we have seen in effect the beginnings of a British Government shift towards the acceptance that,
	"economic instruments, including VAT rates",—[Official Report, 17/3/08; col. 21.]
	should be used on a common basis and be deployed as one of the weapons in our armoury. This will fit into a wider jigsaw and I look forward to the analysis of the famous Brussels bureaucrats recognising, as they do, that there is competition between European industries, and competition between European industries and the industries of the rest of the world. On competition between European industries, a level playing field is very desirable and will enable us all to look the rest of the world in the face on a united basis.
	We have to put the VAT arithmetic into the whole carbon tax jigsaw puzzle with the emissions trading scheme and the estimate by the European Commission on 23 January that €50 billion a year will be transferred through the scheme to the developing countries by 2020. That is not in 50 years' time but in 12 years, which means starting now, to quote the Chinese proverb. I assume that we in Britain will be paying the best part of €7 billion or €8 billion of that €50 billion, which also needs to be budgeted for. In that connection, the remit that President Barroso has been given by the Council of Ministers is side by side with the review of the energy taxation directive to bring it more into line with climate change objectives, as concluded by the Council yesterday.
	It will look into the question of a common European approach entailed in VAT discounts for certain sorts of carbon-reducing products. This is clearly part of a complex exercise of how member states do their carbon budgeting—in the proper use of that term—and it would be useful if President Barroso, in carrying out that remit, were to collect information on how 27 member states are carrying out their carbon budgeting, and how in the financial sense they will present their accounts. The European statistical services will have to raise their game professionally as time goes by on the rather difficult statistical rules on how this should proceed.
	There is a paradox in that at the global level the idea of carbon credits is based on the implicit precept in Stern that everyone in the world is entitled to a notional ration card of 1 tonne per annum of carbon. That does not mean that every Nigerian has a ration book, any more than it means that everyone in Burton-on-Trent has one. On a global basis, undoubtedly heavy users will buy the units that the lighter users do not need, which is some sort of redistribution from the rich to the poor. It would be entirely contradictory if the poor were redistributing to the rich in the United Kingdom through regressive taxation. It is rapidly becoming less unfashionable—certainly in the Labour Party—to discuss income inequality in this country. I cannot see how it can be a function of the Committee on Climate Change to take this matter very far. I am not of course averse to it discussing the issue, but it could become a dog's breakfast if everything was piled on to its agenda. We need to find a mechanism, which I believe my amendment to be, for making sure that there is a clear road map for achieving social equity.
	Treasury instinct, of course, is to guard every item of information as if it were the secret of how to make an atom bomb. Yet, in adopting that line now it is rapidly becoming its own worst enemy. This hugely ambitious exercise will be largely down to it in an operational sense. As it will take the flak, it had better learn how to win hearts and minds, which means going up and down the country—even north of Watford.
	I will listen carefully to what my noble friend has to say and then decide how to pursue the matter this evening and at Third Reading. I gratefully acknowledge the assistance and arguments put forward on parallel lines, publicly and at other levels, by my noble friends Lord Puttnam, who I am glad to see in his place this afternoon, and Lord Whitty, who is unable to be here but who wished me well with the amendment. I know—or at least hope and believe—that such support has been a factor in persuading the Government to pay attention to this analysis and its conclusions.
	I know that Rome was not built in a day, but I trust that my noble friend will be able to analyse my points. Even if he cannot say yes today, and accept the amendment at the second time of asking, he might indicate where he has found some constructive points that members of the Cabinet can take on board before the Bill gets to the Commons in a month's time. I beg to move.

Lord Puttnam: My Lords, I support entirely the principle of the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Lea and I certainly recognise his frustration because I feel it myself from time to time. In a speech made in Japan last week, the former Prime Minister Tony Blair said the following:
	"We have reached the critical moment of decision on climate change ... failure to act on climate change now would be deeply and unforgivably irresponsible ... the scale of what is needed is so great that the purpose of any global action is not to ameliorate or to make better our carbon dependence; it is to transform the nature of economies and societies in terms of carbon consumption and emissions".
	He finished by saying,
	"we're not talking of adjustment, we're talking about a revolution".
	Revolutions are not best dealt with by adopting an attitude of business as usual, and there is a sense that much of this Bill has drifted through in such an atmosphere. My noble friend makes a very good point by saying that the party that has failed to come to the table here is the Treasury. From time to time during the passage of the Bill I have felt that in discussions relating to Treasury matters, we are dealing with a small town bank manager who is looking at the bottom line from a very narrow perspective rather than as something that we all agree is urgent and of real global importance.
	I hope that when the Minister comes to respond, he will accept the fact that many people, not just in this Chamber but outside it as well, sincerely believe that the degree of urgency running across Government—I am not talking about individual departments because I happen to have the highest regard for Defra—and the sense of a possible revolution in the air are not as palpable as some of us would wish.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I shall do my best to answer my noble friend's points. First, however, I want to respond to my noble friend Lord Puttnam on what Tony Blair said. We are doing what he said because that is what is encompassed in this Bill. It will lead to action. Moreover, I share the frustration of my noble friend that this Bill has sailed through your Lordships' House as though the outside world does not exist. I did warn a Member of the other place who I passed on the escalator this morning that they have no idea of what is coming down the corridor. The Bill is incredibly complex and technical, and they will have to dig deep to get at the politics if that is what they seek to dig for—I should add that I was not talking to a member of the Labour Party. That is not to say that we do not do politics in the other place—I do not want to be misunderstood—but the fact is that when the Bill arrives in the other place, it will get reported as though it has not been through your Lordships' House. I share my noble friend's frustration over that, but it is a fact of life. A big success in this place is not getting something reported. We are an unelected Chamber. We are dealing with this Bill, and some issues will be raised in the other place where it is quite right to raise them. However, I think that we have done an absolutely first class job on the Bill, not by revising it because we have dealt with it in the first instance, and we have performed our role. I am convinced that, save for one or two technical adjustments in the voting Lobbies, this Bill will leave the House a much better piece of legislation than it was when it came in.
	My noble friend has pre-empted one of my problems with his amendment, which is that using the Bill to set up a new stakeholder forum is not the right way to address his real concerns. I shall explain that in more detail shortly. The point is that the Government are sympathetic to the underlying point. It is absolutely crucial that parts of society understand the challenge that we face and are engaged in the debate. On the other hand, the people of England let alone GB do not want a revolution. They do not want the language of revolution used because it is completely misunderstood. People want to get on with their lives, bring up their families, go to work, have their bread on the table and basically lead a peaceful life. Where the change has to occur, they have to be convinced of it. They have to be convinced of the connection between their daily existence and these planetary issues. It is our job to seek to make that connection—this Bill is a part of that. If we can make that connection we will get changes of behaviour in individuals, families and companies. They do not want it done in a revolutionary way.
	When the Government bring forward measures for reducing greenhouse gas emissions it is important that full consideration is given to the economic and social impacts and their distribution over society. I am absolutely four square with that. We work hard to ensure that any new measures, taxes or otherwise, do not have a disproportionate impact. You can have some unintended consequences if you are not careful about these things, the most important being having the electorate turn on you. We need to take people along with what we are doing.
	Creating a carbon price through appropriate measures has a number of effects. It ensures that the environmental cost of carbon emissions is taken into account in decision-making, motivating behaviour change and energy-efficient behaviour. That part of the message is slowly getting across. While we do not intend or expect it to encourage firms and households to switch their spending towards other, less emission-intensive goods and services, our policy approach is not a simplistic attempt to choke off demand. We are not seeking to do that. It also provides a financial incentive to deploy and research new technologies which reduce carbon emissions.
	To tackle climate change at the lowest cost to individuals in the economy, we need to address the other market failures that prevent businesses and households responding efficiently to a carbon price, particularly in installing energy-efficient measures that will save them money as well as reduce emissions. The carbon emissions reduction target obligations on energy companies represent a doubling of our ambition on carbon savings to be achieved from the household sector through energy efficiency and will be supported by resources for a green homes service to give people the advice and support they need.
	My noble friend argues that we should hypothecate tax revenues from climate change-related policies to spending on climate change. This is not as simple as it might sound for a number of reasons. Hypothecation is against widely accepted principles of sound public finance. It is an inefficient means of determining relative prioritisation of competing public expenditure programmes. It links funding for a particular programme to the revenue stream used to finance it rather than to need and increases the risk of unpredictable funding.
	My noble friend also made it abundantly clear that he was concerned that the Treasury is not sufficiently engaged in these important questions which, as he rightly identified, have significant implications for the economy, households and government policies and revenues. I assure him that for exactly those reasons the Treasury is closely involved. The Chancellor announced that, recognising the important economic and fiscal implications of the decisions required, the Government would set out their first carbon budgets arising from the Bill and their plans to meet them alongside the Budget of 2009. I am not the spokesman for the Treasury in your Lordships' House but my noble friend Lord Davies is. He dealt with the issue in Committee as we are dividing up issues. The Treasury is intimately involved in all the discussions of the Bill and all the amendments the Government have brought to your Lordships' House. None of those has been brought forward just by Defra Ministers, as noble Lords will appreciate; they have been brought forward on behalf of the Government. Indeed, some amendments have not been brought forward because of governmental discussions, even though I have been pressured to do so. Sometimes that has been because of the financial implications of the measures where, as I have said before on some issues, we want to maintain the maximum possible flexibility when we are seeking to change the behaviour of businesses and individuals. We do not want to get caught by the unintended consequences of what looks like a quick fix.
	As my noble friend Lord Davies said in Committee, the Government are working with the public and business to raise awareness of climate change and the challenges to come, to a greater or level degree of success. Last June we launched a web-based calculator that enables people to calculate their own individual or household CO2 footprint from their use of home energy, appliances and personal transport, and recommends steps users could take to cut their own emissions. We Defra Ministers used that calculator, and I have to say it was not always a happy story. I do not know how many hits the website has had, but we encouraged people to use it and lots of them have.
	We are targeting substantial funds to help support disadvantaged households and tackle the effects of increased energy prices, which are primarily the result of changes in international energy prices rather than environmental policy or the EU emissions trading system. For instance, since the year 2000 the Government have spent in the region of £20 billion on tackling fuel poverty across the UK. That includes funding for fuel poverty programmes and benefits such as Warm Front, the decent homes programme and the winter fuel payments. In addition, Defra has funded a range of grant schemes that have helped to support environmental objectives in tandem with social justice.
	As well as specific policies already being in place to address social justice issues, it is crucial that future policies are also designed the right way. As my noble friend Lord Davies explained in Committee, a rigorous impact assessment process is already in place to ensure that the wider impacts of all government policies are taken into consideration from the start of their development.
	My noble friend Lord Lea mentioned the Stern report. The report's executive summary makes the following helpful point:
	"With strong, deliberate policy choices, it is possible to 'decarbonise' both developed and developing economies on the scale required for climate stabilisation, while maintaining economic growth in both".
	The overlying message of the report of the noble Lord, Lord Stern, who was not then a noble Lord, was that if we start now we can do it at virtually no cost to the economy; leave it 10 or 20 years and it will be a major cost to the economy and individuals. So we are starting now.
	The global policy framework to tackle climate change is the pro-growth strategy for the longer term. The economy will continue to grow but at a slightly lower rate, in the order of 1 per cent slower than if there had been no other constraints including climate change. For those reasons we cannot see the need for a specific forum as proposed by my noble friend Lord Lea, but I hope he is reassured that social justice and equity are at the heart of government policymaking in total and will be given full attention as we work towards meeting our carbon budgets. I have no doubt that when the Bill get to the other place—that needs to be as soon as possible, otherwise we are going to miss out on all the budgetary deadlines set for later this year—these issues will be raised by the elected Members, but they will get the same answer about the way the Government are operating.
	There is a large degree of consensus—although I am not claiming support from anywhere in particular—about the way we are trying to do this. It is not revolutionary; it is evolutionary, but with all haste. The Bill is here, we have made the necessary preparations for the climate change committee and we have set out our stall. That is why the former Prime Minister can justifiably go around making speeches on the basis that the UK is giving a lead. If we were not doing this it would be much more difficult for Tony Blair to make those speeches, but he knows that we are on our way to giving a lead to Europe and the world, even though we are relatively small emitters of greenhouse gases. I hope that, on that basis, my noble friend will be reassured that we are taking on board social justice and equity, and will not push his amendment.

Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for being so constructive in his response and to my noble friend Lord Puttnam for his remarks. One point that was made en passant was new to me: in 2009 there will be what I shall describe as the financial carbon budgets side by side with the quantitative carbon budgets. That is certainly a step forward.
	I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stern, that we can grow the GDP. What concerns me is not the theory that we can but that, to use a variation on the word "revolution", there could be a revolt. People will find that they are being hit by taxes to choke off demand. We need to have more discussion at some level or other about whether the argument made by Oxford Economics, which was the economic basis of some of the review's analysis, is true, as I am saying. The argument is that the 30 per cent reduction from trend over the next 20 years will be from choking off demand through price. That is where ballpark numbers are quite important; my guess is that taxation will be responsible for at least half of that. This is the sort of thing we need to get nearer to, and I do not think this is the climate change committee's area of expertise.
	I know that hypothecation is unfashionable. When I did my economics at Cambridge many years ago I did a special paper on public finance, and I remember all the arguments that were stacked up to say, "It is a very bad thing!". As we have seen with the congestion charge and the £50 notes going to buses or something, the issue is about winning hearts and minds. It is a question not just of economic theory but of how you get people to see that this is where their money is going and that is what it is being spent on. This is a revolution in terms of a huge change of economic structure. I have not even mentioned anything about employment structure and workers' representation, but all of those things are affected.
	I shall not push this further today, naturally, but something like a carbon tax forum—I do not mind what we call it—is an idea whose time has come now. It will be overdue when it is finally introduced because those people in Burton-on-Trent will not know what has hit them. Helping them understand it is a job that, at present, the Treasury is not supremely good at.
	I look forward to these issues being further debated in the Labour Party and all the other political parties. Before the Bill gets to the House of Commons, the Government may wish to reflect on whether they can clarify what my noble friend asserted was going to happen—what the Government will and will not do. I think he said half an hour ago on a different amendment that he thought there might be one or two amendments to the Bill in the next 50 years. I hope he has clearance in Whitehall for saying that; I would not like anything bad to happen to him. Anyway, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
	Clause 50 [Programme for adaptation to climate change: Northern Ireland]:

Lord Rooker: moved Amendment No. 204:
	Clause 50, page 22, line 23, leave out from "lay" to "setting" in line 24 and insert "programmes before the Northern Ireland Assembly"
	On Question, amendment agreed to.
	Clause 52 [Directions by Secretary of State to prepare reports]:

Lord Teverson: moved Amendment No. 205:
	Clause 52, page 23, line 11, after "authority" insert "(and shall direct all priority reporting authorities)"

Lord Teverson: My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 206, 208 and 210 as well. This group of amendments would, once again, strengthen the adaptation roles of the Bill. We are trying to ensure that only the most important public authorities are directed to make reports about adaptation and plans issues. It is important that this happens because we need to get on and do this, but only with respect to certain authorities. We believe that public authorities and critical infrastructure providers must assess the risk posed by climate change and take action to address it.
	One reason why the amendment is needed is illustrated best by the Government's Amendment No. 209, whose drafting almost gives politics a bad name. It states:
	"It is the duty of the Secretary of State to lay reports before Parliament setting out how the Secretary of State intends to exercise the powers under section 52".
	This is a direction to think about something that one should perhaps direct, but it seems a highly indirect approach. Our amendment states that this is important, and that priority authorities should have a duty to do it. Amendment No. 210 provides that the priority reporting authorities should only be category 1 and category 2 responders, which includes emergency services, National Health Service providers, utilities, local authorities and the Environment Agency.
	The amendment is very selective—it imposes a duty. If we are right about the threat of climate change and adaptation is as important as we say it is, then this is a measured, but firm, response to make sure that, as a nation—locally and regionally—we are prepared. I beg to move.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, we are grateful for the arguments presented by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. We have put our names to the amendment to highlight our desire to alleviate the confusion regarding the duties on public bodies for reporting on adaptation to climate change. Who will this duty fall upon? On what size of body will it fall? Will every school be required to produce a report, or every local authority? There needs to be much greater clarity about who will be responsible for reporting.
	Government Amendment No. 209 requires a report to be laid after 12 months outlining how they intend to exercise the power to give directions to local authorities. However this is simply deferring the issue. The Minister noted in Committee that the Government should wait until the results of voluntary action by local authorities under the new local government performance framework had been collected. Can the Minister give us any indication of the success of these programmes? Does he think that voluntary action is sufficient? If the Minister intends to place a duty to report, we feel that it is very important that the scope of the type and number of institutions that will be reporting and the nature of their reports is completely clear and explained.

Lord Crickhowell: My Lords, when we last addressed these issues I spoke of my experience as chairman of the National Rivers Authority for more than eight years, dealing with flood protection and flood emergencies. I followed immediately on from the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, chief executive of the Environment Agency. She spoke of her experience and of her responsibilities in exactly the same field in recent months and years. I suggested to the Government that, in the light of the absolutely united views of her people, who have been responsible for those bodies over many years, they should take very seriously what was being said to them.
	In a debate on a previous amendment, the Minister said that we are starting now. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, rightly pointed out, the government amendment on this issue hardly involves starting now: it tells us that in 12 months' time the Government will report on how they intend to exercise the powers of giving direction. Yet, if the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, were here—I understand that she is attending a board meeting today—she would point out that this is a matter of great urgency. We are dealing with these emergency situations now. We are likely to be dealing with them in the near future. However, a number of the organisations which are most involved and where it is most likely that urgent action needs to be taken are not showing many signs of urgency at present.
	My noble friend Lord Taylor referred to the new local government performance framework. My information is that the results so far show that only about a third of local authorities have adopted the climate change adaptation performance measures as important for them. It does not suggest that they are showing great urgency.
	We have heard from the Environment Agency that a number of the key players in this game, such as the water supply and sewerage services, are not showing great signs of giving these issues the priority that is needed. We heard the excuse provided by the Minister on a previous occasion that if we had a wide-ranging requirement, there might be as many as 25,000 bodies receiving instruction. However this amendment deliberately bases the duty on the category 1 and category 2 organisations defined in the Civil Contingencies Act. They are the emergency services, National Health Service providers, utilities, local authorities and the Environment Agency. Surely there can be no question that those organisations should be getting on with it as a matter of urgency. The Government should be making it clear to those organisations now, or as soon as the Bill is enacted, that they will want to know how those clear duties are being addressed.
	It is no good putting this off. The Government will look foolish if, while the Secretary of State is considering what report he should lay before Parliament about what action he may take at some date in the future, there is a major emergency such as a flood disaster or another east coast flood of the kind that we have experienced in the past. If we find that the electricity utilities, for example, have not taken effective action or that other bodies which might be disastrously hit in such a flood have not taken preliminary measures, the Government will rightly be blamed for not giving this priority and for a lack of urgency.
	All we are urging the Government to do is take this issue as seriously as it needs to be taken, not to delay and to get on with it. I therefore strongly support these amendments and urge the Government to take them more seriously than they appear to have done so far.

Lord Oxburgh: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, has made many of the points that I would have made. It is a question of small, local bodies putting this matter sufficiently high on their priority list. This should not be seen as an imposition on those bodies, but as a help in so far as, on an everyday basis, the people allocating resources—money, time or what have you—have 1,000 immediate short-term pressures on them. It is difficult for them to say, "These matters which may impact us in four, five or 10 years' time must be worked on now". However, if they can answer their local electorates, officials or councils and say, "The Government require us to do this", they can do it. It is a matter of getting inside that mentality, and giving them the support they need to give this important area the priority it must have.

Lord Vinson: My Lords, I sometimes wonder whether, when we talk about priorities, we remember that all these clauses mean that Britain is trying to be an exemplar to the rest of the world. I wonder whether we fail to see the wood for the green trees.
	The world population will increase by 3 billion people over the next 30 years. That totally overwhelms anything we could do to alleviate climate change. There is a big selling job to be done to get the British public on board as to the realities of the sort of measures we are suggesting. Although I totally accept that so many of these measures are proposed for the best possible motives, we must remember that they will not make the slightest difference to the climate change we are so worried about.
	There are measures we can take, but they are on a much more international stage. I agree that measures such as these will help us to show what good world citizens we are, but the point will come when the British public will get fed up with being good world citizens and look to the rest of the world to do its stuff. We should paint all our endeavours against the world situation and, as I repeat, try to see the wood for the green trees that are preventing us seeing the world situation more clearly.

Lord Puttnam: My Lords, I rise to support the amendment. I have little to add to the terrific speeches of the noble Lords, Lord Crickhowell and Lord Oxburgh. However, I want to make one additional point; the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, is not here and I suspect it is something that she would have wished to say. Maybe, because of the difficulty she may have as chief executive of the Environment Agency, I can put it a little more plainly.
	The Government, as the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, has rightly said, will get the blame if, as and when there is a disaster. They will quite likely seek to lay the blame and responsibility on the Environment Agency. Is it reasonable or sensible, politically or morally, not to take the firm advice of the Environment Agency on this matter, and allow this amendment to stand?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I will in due course speak to government Amendments Nos. 209 and 229 in this group. In doing so, I hope to reassure your Lordships' House that the Government have taken on board the debate we had in Committee. I want to reassure your Lordships that the Government have a commitment to ensure that vital services, critical infrastructure and the natural environment are protected through appropriate action to adapt to climate change.
	The government amendments will ensure that there is greater transparency over, and an early report to Parliament on, the authorities which are a priority for adapting to a changing climate. But they also set out a flexible and proportionate approach, now and into the future, which will ensure that we can respond to the impacts of climate change quickly, without the need for future primary legislation. They would place a new duty on the Secretary of State to lay reports before Parliament, setting out how he intends to exercise the power to give directions to reporting authorities to prepare adaptation reports under Clause 52. These reports by the Secretary of State will outline the circumstances in which such directions will be given, and those reporting authorities that are a priority. Before laying the report before Parliament, the appropriate persons or bodies will be consulted. Government Amendment No. 229 also lays out a similar arrangement for Wales.
	We are determined to provide this information as soon as practically possible, taking on board the points made in Committee about the timescale for government action. Amendment No. 209 therefore proposes that the first report under this new clause is laid before Parliament no later than 12 months after this Bill is enacted. In order to meet this deadline, we expect the public consultation to be held before the end of the year, so we are taking action as quickly as we possibly can. Subsequent reports will be laid no later than the next adaptation programme under Clause 49. In this way, we will create a robust mechanism for regular and ongoing reviews of those organisations that need to be acting on adaptation, as our knowledge grows.
	I hope that these amendments will provide sufficient confidence in the decision-making process and help provide clarity to reporting authorities as to which of them are considered to be priorities. I hope that it also reassures the House that the Government expect public bodies to assess risk and take action. There is also a small set of technical amendments in my name: Amendments Nos. 234 to 239 make some amendments to the table of definitions in Clause 79 to reflect the changes made to the Bill in Committee.
	Turning to Amendments Nos. 205 to 208 and 210, I have seriously considered the points made in Committee about the merits of placing a blanket duty on those bodies listed in Schedule 1 to the Civil Contingencies Act. However, we remain convinced that a power to request reports from these or other organisations, as set out in Clauses 51 to 59 and reinforced by the government amendments, is more appropriate—and, indeed, more effective—than placing a blanket duty on all organisations in the civil contingencies list, for the following key reasons.
	First, identifying a particular group of bodies now is too prescriptive and inflexible. Under government Amendment No. 209, we will be able to identify those bodies that are a priority, not just now but in the future, without the need for further legislation. This is because the list of reporting authorities referred to in Amendment No. 210 has been set in primary legislation and cannot be updated except through further primary legislation. In addition, specifying bodies under the Civil Contingencies Act signals that adapting to climate change is solely about emergency response. We recognise that this is an important issue, and those organisations with responsibilities under the Civil Contingencies Act will, in any case, need to be planning for risks to human welfare, the environment and security under their existing statutory duties.
	However, we also want to send a strong signal that climate change can impact on any public body, not just those identified as responding to national emergencies. Impacts can be gradual—heat, water stress—as well as sudden, and will impact different bodies in different ways. In some sectors there may well be opportunities as well as risks, such as some potential benefits for health and agriculture.
	Furthermore, the Government's approach has the potential scope to cover up to 20 times more bodies than the civil contingencies list. For instance, organisations such as drainage boards, which may be identified as vital in responding to emergencies, are not covered by the list referred to in Amendment No. 210 but will be very important in our long-term response to climate change. This example highlights the inconsistency in the proposed approach. In fact the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, used a figure that I had given previously of some 25,000 authorities covered by the definition. In fact, we are now up to 28,000—

Lord Teverson: My Lords, I do not interrupt the Minister lightly. Maybe I misunderstand our own amendment, but it does not stop the Secretary of State having that discretion in the Bill. It says that the Secretary of State "must" in terms of the priority authorities. He still has all the authority to ask others to as well, so I do not understand that argument. The Secretary of State can ask those bodies without any change in primary legislation. All we are saying is that, for priority 1 and priority 2, he must; for the rest, he can.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, if I have misunderstood that, I apologise and I will come back to the noble Lord before the debate is finished.
	The Civil Contingencies Act covers about 1,400 bodies whereas the definition we propose includes about 28,000 statutory undertakers. These are bodies such as schools, higher and further education institutions, public bodies sponsored by government departments, the Prison Service, probation boards and inspectorates, and royal colleges. Although we will apply a risk-based approach to targeting specific organisations, we do not envisage requiring all the 28,000 bodies to report. The definition we are using has not changed but we have now conducted some further work and believe the number covered to be closer to 28,000 and not the 25,000 that the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, used. That is the reason for the figure. I am trying to update as we go along.
	Secondly, a blanket duty would be overly burdensome and counter to the principles of better regulation that the Government are committed to and that your Lordships' House has supported. The Better Regulation Commission's report on risk and climate change noted that the Government should keep administrative burdens to a minimum. We have accepted all the recommendations from the commission's report and fully intend to adhere to them. As I have already noted, category 1 and 2 responders under the Civil Contingencies Act will already be assessing climate change risks where appropriate, so an additional duty specifically on this group will be particularly unnecessary and burdensome. That may go some way to answering the noble Lord.
	Thirdly, our approach of using a power would also offer more flexibility and autonomy to local and regional government. We do not seek to micromanage local services and place new unnecessary burdens on local authorities. We should let the experts on the ground who understand their areas and their risks have a chance to take responsibility for action. This approach is broadly shared by the Local Government Association, whose views we discussed in Committee. I want to take this opportunity to thank Councillor Paul Bettison, chairman of the Local Government Association Environment Board, for his letter clarifying the position of the Local Government Association and the LGA's climate change commission on this issue. His letter states:
	"The LGA believes that the imposition of a specific statutory duty on councils to report on adaptation before the new performance indicators or comprehensive area assessments have been given a chance to bed in represents a disappointing step back towards centralism".
	We believe that the proposals in Amendments Nos. 205 to 208 and 210 are not targeted at all the right bodies and do not take account of the changes in priorities which may take place between now and 2050. We also believe that they are burdensome and disproportionate and that they run counter to the expressed wishes of local government representatives for a more flexible approach which devolves more responsibility to them. For these reasons we cannot accept the amendments and we think that the Government's amendments offer a better package.
	I will make a couple of points in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor. He asked how successful the local government performance indicator is. It started only this year so we cannot answer that yet. The success will be reviewed through the existing local government performance management process. He asked how the power would be used and who will apply it. In a way that is the point of the strategy. It will outline who needs to act, why and when. Any decision by the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers to require a report will be made primarily in the light of, first, the level of progress being made on adaptation by that reporting authority and, secondly, how important that organisation is to the UK's ability to adapt. These factors will of course be underpinned by scientific knowledge, evidence from specific events—for example, the hot summer of 2003—the risk assessment in Clause 48 or the adaptation programme in Clause 49. We will not, and indeed should not, wait for the national risk assessments to be completed to use the power. There is already some evidence to say broadly which types of organisation need to be factoring in climate change to their plans.
	The new report required by government Amendment No. 209 will require us to set out our strategy for using the power within 12 months of the Royal Assent. To do this we will supplement our existing knowledge with a survey of our capability to deal with climate impacts and look at the mechanisms which already exist to ensure key organisations consider and manage their risks; for example, the new local authority performance indicator on adaptation to ensure local authorities are taking action, or a duty on energy suppliers to ensure the continuity of supply. The power is designed to mesh with, and not duplicate, other activities to mainstream adaptation into ongoing work; for example, the new local government performance framework and the water strategy, Future Water, which was published in February. In future the regular Clause 48 risk assessment will give us a more informed understanding of the risk faced and who needs to act.
	I apologise to noble Lords for the length of the reply. I hope I am not asked to read out all the other bodies that might be affected. One can look them up. By rule of thumb England alone probably has 20,000 primary schools and 4,000 secondary schools but they do not all necessarily have to report. That is why the number of bodies is much greater than the number covered by the Civil Contingencies Act. I hope I have satisfied noble Lords. I have not received any further and better particulars to answer the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, but I may have answered him in the further points I came to in my speech.

Lord Teverson: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. I still think our amendment has the best of both worlds in that it allows for organisations to be specifically targeted by the Secretary of State but demands, in terms of long-term national security, that certain organisations have a duty to bring plans. From that point of view this amendment is far superior to the Government's amendment. I recognise that the Government have a timescale for the process. I should be delighted if the Minister could withdraw his amendment and think about it again but I am sure that will not happen. I find it very difficult to know where to go from here.
	In terms of the devolution of power, even as a Liberal Democrat I think there are certain areas where the Government have responsibilities. The drawing up of adaptation plans will be naturally devolved. They will be local plans or plans by individual national bodies under categories 1 and 2. I am sorry I cannot convince the Minister. There is a real issue here which I would certainly wish to think about further. I say to the Minister that the solution he has at the moment is genuinely not the best one. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
	[Amendments Nos. 206 to 208 not moved.]

Lord Rooker: moved Amendment No. 209:
	After Clause 54, insert the following new Clause—
	"Report on exercise of power to give directions
	(1) It is the duty of the Secretary of State to lay reports before Parliament setting out how the Secretary of State intends to exercise the power under section 52 to give directions to reporting authorities.
	(2) The reports must, in particular, identify—
	(a) the circumstances in which directions are likely to be given, and(b) the authorities or kinds of authority to whom the Secretary of State considers directions should be given as a matter of priority.
	(3) Nothing in a report under this section affects the exercise of the Secretary of State's power under section 52.
	(4) Before laying a report under this section before Parliament the Secretary of State must consult such persons likely to be affected by the report as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.
	(5) The first report under this section must be laid before Parliament no later than 12 months after this Act is passed.
	(6) Subsequent reports must be laid before Parliament no later than the time when the next programme under section 49 is so laid.
	(7) The Secretary of State must send a copy of each report under this section to the other national authorities."
	On Question, amendment agreed to.
	Clause 59 [Interpretation of sections 51 to 58]:
	[Amendment No. 210 not moved.]
	Schedule 5 [Waste reduction schemes]:

Lord Davies of Oldham: moved Amendment No. 211:
	Schedule 5, page 62, leave out line 8

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, in moving government Amendment No. 211 in the name of my noble friend Lord Rooker I shall speak also to government Amendment No. 220.
	These are drafting amendments designed to improve the quality and consistency of the drafting. The two amendments, in combination, move the definition of "specified" in paragraph 1(3) from the main body of provisions in Schedule 5 to the "interpretation" section. This "interpretation" section contains all the other definitions of terms used in that schedule and is therefore a more logical home for the definition of "specified". I assure the House that the amendments have no further effect beyond improving the quality of the drafting. I beg to move.

The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, having looked at this group, there is nothing to which we wish to object. It seems to put all the meanings in one place for easier reference, which is always helpful.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Rooker: moved Amendment No. 212:
	Schedule 5, page 62, line 35, leave out "or 5"

Lord Rooker: My Lords, when we discussed the waste provisions in Committee a few weeks ago, I mentioned that, as set out in the consultation paper, we would give local authorities powers to be able to charge according to how often residents have their waste collected and in relation to tags or other identifiers which residents must attach to their waste receptacles. I said then that we might bring forward amendments to clarify that these charging methods are available as well as those already provided for in paragraphs 4 and 5 of Schedule 2AA, which is to be inserted into the Environmental Protection Act 1990.
	These types of schemes are straightforward and have operated successfully overseas. For example, Shell Harbour in the United States introduced a frequency-based scheme which led to a 45 per cent reduction in waste sent to landfill. Meanwhile, a combined frequency and volume-based scheme in Ludwigshafen—I should have considered how to pronounce that name before I said it—in Germany reduced waste levels by around 15 per cent. If an authority thinks it is appropriate for its area, it is right that such a model should also be tested in England.
	A frequency-based scheme could work by residents choosing how often they wish to have their waste collected. Those opting for a more frequent collection than the standard service offered by the local authority would pay extra. Rebates could then be redistributed to those whose waste is collected less frequently. Alternatively, residents could decide from week to week whether to leave their bin out and then be charged or rebated according to how many times their waste had, in fact, been collected.
	Under a tag-based scheme, residents would pay for identifying tags or stickers which they must place on their waste receptacles each time their waste is collected. Rebates would then be paid back to residents on a flat-rate basis, with the effect that some households make a net gain—in other words, pay less—and others end up paying more overall. Again, such schemes are already operating successfully overseas. For example, tag-based schemes in other towns in Germany have led to reductions in waste of around 37 per cent. I am now bringing forward government Amendment No. 213, which replaces paragraphs 4 and 5 of the schedule with a new paragraph 4. New paragraph 4 would allow local authorities to charge in any of the ways just mentioned, or any combination of these methods.
	The other amendments in this group, government Amendments Nos. 212, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218 and 222 are all consequential on government Amendment No. 213. Government Amendment No. 215 is a drafting improvement. It makes it clear that a failure to pay a waste charge under paragraph 4 would not affect the authority's duty to arrange for waste to be collected. It confirms that powers to run waste reduction schemes are consistent with existing powers relating to a local authority's duty to collect waste.
	Finally, to enable tag-based schemes to operate, it is important that the existing powers for local authorities to make sure that residents put their waste in the specified receptacles are extended to these types of scheme. So that this can happen, government Amendment No. 222 builds slightly on Section 46 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990. In the same way that an authority can specify whether waste should be collected in bins or bags, this amendment now allows authorities, if necessary, to require residents to attach a specified identifier—a tag or sticker, say—to their waste receptacles.
	We are also considering proposing a further amendment to make it clearer that once a local authority has asked residents to place their waste in a particular receptacle, normally a bin, the authority need not collect any waste lying outside that bin—so-called "side waste". These side waste policies have been successfully operated by a significant number of authorities, with the support of their community, using powers given by the Environmental Protection Act 1990, so this is not new. As part of a good overall service, they have helped householders to reduce the waste they throw away and to increase the amount they recycle. We think that it would be beneficial for local authorities, and for residents, to have a single clear point of reference in legislation. That is why we will be considering bringing forward an amendment at a later stage. I cannot say whether that will be at Third Reading or when the Bill reaches the other place.
	I should also mention here that we plan to bring forward an amendment at a later stage which will enable the Secretary of State to require certain large retailers to apply a minimum charge when distributing single-use carrier bags. This requirement to charge will come into force next year, unless retailers have by that time already managed to achieve a significant reduction in the number of bags in circulation. The Government are keen to see these measures extend across the whole of the United Kingdom. We will work with the devolved Administrations to establish the most appropriate way to achieve this.
	Amendments Nos. 213A, 213B and 213C relate to the administration of charges under a waste reduction scheme. I shall take each in turn. Amendment No. 213A would remove local authorities' ability to ask residents to pay in advance their waste charge for a certain period according to an evidence-based assessment of how much waste they are likely to produce during that period. We have to remember that local authorities will be the bodies running these schemes and they are not going to do that if they do not have the powers and flexibilities they need to make them work well. Being able to charge in advance is a good example. It is a small thing but it could make the world of difference to authorities being able to administer schemes effectively and efficiently.
	Moreover, it is only fair to give people an idea from the outset of roughly what they can expect to pay or earn under a waste incentive scheme. The existing provisions allow us to do that. Local authorities would be able to issue people with a provisional charge or rebate for the period ahead and make any necessary tweaks or adjustments in the next period. This is a standard approach and people are familiar with it as it is how most utility payments work. For those reasons, we do not think that Amendment No. 213A is a good idea.
	Amendment No. 213B would prevent local authorities from requiring that charges under a waste reduction scheme are paid on account or by instalment. Instead, it would permit residents to pay in these ways, if they wished to do so. We have been clear that there would never be a case of an authority imposing a waste reduction scheme, or any aspect of that scheme, on residents. Instead, they will need to work closely with their communities in developing proposals which are responsive to local needs and wishes. This would include how charges should be paid.
	Once a decision has been made on payment methods, though, it is right that local authorities should be able to make that a requirement under the scheme. That authorities can run schemes effectively and efficiently is of the utmost importance. Nobody wants to see a scheme where administration is bureaucratic and costly. Taking away this right to require payment by instalment also potentially undermines the link to council tax, which itself can be paid by instalment. Given the importance of realising efficiencies through linking to council tax—something authorities themselves have asked for—removing this requirement would be a retrograde step.
	It is also important to remember that paying or rebating by instalment does not make anyone worse off. We are talking about people paying or receiving the same rebate regardless of whether it is once a year, once a quarter or once a month. Removing that requirement, therefore, does not achieve anything besides making the link to council tax more difficult. I want to assure noble Lords that there is no attempt to impose waste incentive schemes on local residents. We want to strive for systems that are embraced by the community work to the benefit of all.
	Amendment No. 213C would require, first, that charges under a waste reduction scheme were payable exclusively by occupiers of premises included in the scheme. Secondly, it would require that, where people owe outstanding charges, they still have to pay them even if they move house. I can understand why, on the first part, the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, would consider it logical for only occupiers to pay charges relating to how much waste they throw away. In most if not all instances, that will be the case. However, we have left it open to local authorities themselves to determine who is liable to pay the charge. We think it important that they have flexibility. If, for example, the authority wishes to integrate charges and rebates with the council tax system, the occupier is not always the council tax payer. As I said in previous debates, we think that local authorities could realise important efficiencies by making a link to council tax should they wish to do so. In doing so, they may wish to reflect the liability structure that exists for council tax. In general, however, the rule of thumb would always be that the charge should be paid by the person or persons producing the waste. That is what underpins a successful incentivising scheme.
	On sub-paragraph (7)(b) of the amendment, I appreciate the noble Lord's concern that people should pay the charges they owe even if they move to a different house and that the outstanding charges should not be transferred to those who move in. That is the situation we would strive to achieve. We would want to encourage local authorities to use their powers to recover outstanding debt regardless of whether people move out of the area. Requiring local authorities to make these precise calculations every time someone moves house is saddling them with an unnecessary burden. Therefore, it should be up to the local authorities, in collaboration with their communities, to decide how they manage people moving in or out. I therefore cannot accept this amendment.
	Amendment No. 217A proposes to remove our ability to amend the requirement that all revenue raised by local authorities through charges under a waste reduction scheme be returned to residents through rebates. I understand the noble Lord's concerns and should like to reassure him straight away on two points. First, we do not currently envisage needing to amend the requirement. Secondly, if we did want to amend it at some point in the future, the proposal would be subject to the comprehensive parliamentary scrutiny implied by the affirmative procedure. However, we think it makes sense now to have the scope in the provisions to make any necessary changes in the future. This avoids our having to produce new primary legislation to make small changes which may arise in the longer term as waste incentive schemes progress and evolve. That is simply a prudent and sensible approach which we think strikes the right balance.
	The Delegated Powers Committee looked at this issue and was content with our proposals. It is the same approach we are taking to other requirements under a waste incentive scheme, including providing a good recycling service and having in place a fly-tipping prevention strategy. All those are prerequisites for being able to have the schemes in the first place. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, will speak to his amendments, but I hope I have given him a positive view of the Government's approach. We can largely see where he is coming from, and we sympathise with some of the approaches. But—this is the big "but"—we genuinely want local government to have as much power and flexibility as possible. I think that that is right. I beg to move.

Lord Greaves: My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments Nos. 213A to 213C, which amend government Amendments Nos. 213 and 217A. I think that I thank the Minister for systematically rubbishing my amendments before I got to speak to them. At least I know where he is coming from and what he is going to say.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Davies suggested, and I think he is right, we are uncomfortable doing it this way round. When there is another such group, and there is at least one more, I will not refer to the opposition amendments when moving the government amendment but deal with them in the wind-up. I apologise. I am uncomfortable with this procedure but it is the one we were working with.

Lord Greaves: My Lords, I was thanking the Minister for doing it. I also thank him for being uncomfortable. And the pronunciation—if I can help him—is something like Ludwigshafen.
	The Minister raised two issues, the first of which was side waste. He said a later amendment is planned to clarify the position in various legislation and to put all the provisions in one place. Local authorities will welcome that, because there is a lot of argument about side waste in recycling schemes. Secondly, he suggested that the Government will come forward at some stage with an amendment in relation to certain large retailers—an interesting phrase—and single-use bags. We would very much welcome that. We will be interested to see what that amendment says whenever and wherever it appears. We welcome the Government taking the issue seriously. We raised it in Committee on this Bill.
	I also welcome government Amendment No. 213—which, as the Minister said, is generally the substantive amendment in this group—not least because it makes the whole presentation of the proposals much clearer and it shortens the Bill, something which is unusual for a government amendment but is to be welcomed. The amendment sets out much more clearly for anyone interested the different options for the pilots and for looking at waste reduction schemes: based on the weight of residual waste; volume—the big bins or the little bins; and type of receptacle—bins, sacks or anything else that people might invent. The question of frequency is much clearer here than it was in the original wording. The reference to types of receptacle and identification of receptacles is also much clearer. Although Amendment No. 213 does not change in any way the Government's intentions towards the options, it is a good amendment. I understand this provision much better than the previous, rather convoluted one.
	Amendment No. 213A, which is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Teverson, goes back to the issue we discussed in Committee. We gave all these charging provisions and systems a pretty good scrubbing down in Committee. The fact that we did so means that at least some of us are not revisiting those issues here. The issues will undoubtedly be considered again in the House of Commons, and we have very much helped them to do so. However, one issue that was not dealt with is advanced payments and payments on account and in instalments. Both Liberal Democrat Members and Conservative Members tabled amendments in Committee on the issue, and I remember some very useful contributions by the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, on the subject. We were not given proper answers in Committee, and I am not sure that the Minister has given us proper answers in advance today.
	In Committee, the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, said that,
	"there must be a link between cause and effect. If people have to wait a very long time to see the cause and effect on charging, local authorities would benefit from the option of handling the charging differently".—[Official Report, 30/1/08; col. 703.]
	The problem is that if you send out estimated bills in advance and give people estimated rewards or estimated penalties in advance, how is that responding to a change in their behaviour? Surely it is clear whether people change their behaviour in a certain way or not, and they are then rewarded or penalised afterwards for doing so. It seems totally illogical to say to people: "We are going to penalise you or reward you on the basis of your historic behaviour before the system comes in". I do not think that the Government have faced up to that properly.
	Some payments in advance will take place, because if people want a big bin they will have to pay more for it, and they will get a bill for that. If there is a sack system and people have to buy the number of sacks that they require, they will pay for those in advance. That is not at issue. What is at issue is where the refuse is going to be weighed and people are then going to get rewards or penalties, and the size of their bill will depend on how much they throw away. Surely, that has to come afterwards.
	In Committee, the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, referred to utility companies, and the Minister has done so again today. That reference really is not the case. As I said in Committee, if you have an electricity bill or a gas bill that you think is too great, you can read the meter and ring the company to get an amended bill. There is no way that you can do that in relation to your waste; you are lumbered with the estimate, however it has been carried out. I do not know how they will possibly make these estimates in the first place. There is a real problem here in terms of advance estimates and advance payments in the weight-based type of scheme.
	As far as "on account or by instalments" is concerned, the point of my amendment on instalments is the opposite of what the Minister suggested. He suggested that it is like council tax, which you are able to pay in instalments. That is true, but it is not a requirement to pay council tax in instalments. If you are sufficiently soft in the head, as I was earlier this week, to write a cheque out for the whole of your council tax and pay it all at the beginning of the year, you are entitled to do that. Council tax becomes payable at the beginning of the year. You have a right to pay in instalments if you want to, but you pay those instalments in arrears, because the council tax is due on 1 April, and if you wish, as most people do, you pay by direct debit, cash or cheque each month subsequently over 10 months. You are doing it in arrears, though, because the council tax is due on 1 April. You have a right to pay quarterly or monthly, because a lot of people cannot afford to pay up front, or they are not daft enough to do it like I am.
	This is the opposite. What is being said here is that people will be forced to pay by instalments. The purpose of my amendment is to say that if they want to pay up front and get the whole thing out of the way, they should be able to. We are talking about quite a small amount of money here; £30 or £40. The idea of being forced to pay that by instalment through the year in £5 direct debits is crackers. That is the purpose of the amendment, and I hope that the Government will look again at that issue.
	My final amendment in this group is on revenue neutrality. I really do not understand why the Government want to put into legislation the ability to abolish the requirement for revenue neutrality when they cannot come up with any circumstances whatever in which they might do it. In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, said that it would be an "unforeseen event", and that is all we got. He said:
	"We want the flexibility to amend the revenue-neutrality condition. In the unforeseen event that we need to make an amendment ... it would come back to Parliament".—[Official Report, 30/1/08; col. 711.]
	I accept what the Minister said this afternoon, that it would be an affirmative order, but to say that an affirmative order amounts to comprehensive parliamentary scrutiny, as he said, is pushing it a little bit. It is better than none, but it is the old take it or leave it system. It does not really provide us with the opportunity to scrutinise it as if it were primary legislation, although the system is getting better slowly, year by year.
	I press the Minister again on what circumstances he thinks might change what he is saying is a cast-iron guarantee of revenue neutrality—that they will not make money out of it and it is not a stealth tax or any other type of tax, except that it is a redistribution from those whose behaviour is thought to be not good to those whose behaviour is thought to be good in recycling. That is the whole principle of it: redistribution from goodies to baddies as far as recycling behaviour is concerned. Yet the Government want it in the legislation that they can change it, so that revenue neutrality can be abolished in the future and they could raise revenue. Under what possible circumstances do the Government think that they might want to do this? Until they come clean and tell us, this should not be in the legislation.

The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, I cannot help seeing a very slight element of irony in that, as we pat ourselves on the back for being at the head of climate change, we keep referring to how Germany is doing it better. I had an easier job talking about North Rhine-Westphalia; whereas the Minister was landed with something rather dreadful to pronounce, which may have been Ludwigshafen.
	Amendment No. 213 is the main amendment in this group, the remainder being consequential. We feel that the revised wording makes clearer what the Government intend. In particular, it allows receptacles—for example sacks, plastic or otherwise—to be identified by tags for which a charge would be made. One has visions of a new level of neighbourliness from A, who has five tags and only needs four, and B who is running one short and borrows a tag. Or there may be a back-door trade set up in which someone will try to put a price on it. The only remaining concern is that I would be glad for the Minister's confirmation that no householder will be forced to pay for a service that he or she does not require. There surely cannot be many, but I am told that there are people who live during the week in rented accommodation, doing no more than sleeping and showering there, and removing their rubbish with their laundry on a Friday morning. This avoids their having to put the rubbish out, or move a wheelie bin onto the pavement.
	The consequential amendments do not affect the requirement for revenue neutrality. I well remember the Minister's robust defence of this provision. I should be grateful, however, if he would respond to a further probe on the Government's intentions in this area. We understand that the costs of running a waste reduction scheme will be met from the savings that the council will accrue through providing materials for recycling. Does this mean that when the Secretary of State considers a scheme for piloting he will expect to see proof of a contract between the piloting authority and the waste reclamation company that it proposes to use? Furthermore, will any rollout be dependent on there being sufficient reclamation capacity of the kind needed for the scheme in question to function with sufficient financial payback to cover the administration costs? The phrase "a good recycling service" does not seem to us necessarily to cover this point.

Baroness Byford: My Lords, I welcome the Government's commitment to look at retail plastic bags, because they deface our countryside in many ways. I say that with a slight smile because I suspect that most of us who acquire them new from the retailer go on to use them again. The bags are therefore used more than once, although they come from their original source only once. I do not mean this in a childish way, but that needs a bit of thought.
	I also wonder what research has been done on producing a receptacle—apart from a paper one—which is biodegradable. Presumably, research is ongoing. If the Minister has information on that, it would be helpful if it was shared with us today.
	As regards the collections in these trial areas, most of us will have a regular amount of rubbish that goes each week to be recycled and is put in its proper bags. But from time to time, when one has an invasion of family or friends, the weekly amount may well be doubled. I wonder, in the constraints of what is being proposed, how that will be dealt with as well. We do not want to jeopardise people who are doing their best, but at certain times of year they may well have more than they would otherwise have.
	The Minister mentioned Germany, which is doing better. In many ways, that is not surprising, because, as the Minister knows, Germany already has biodigesters that are in use. I wondered whether the Government have done any research on how much wasted is wasted and is not used to produce electricity or energy. Have the Government thought what might possibly be gained from particular schemes? Have local authorities been asked how much of their original waste could be used in a constructive way? Might they, as a result of that, look at having biodigesters within their own authority? On the question of unpaid moneys, has any figure been thought about or anticipated? Is any in the public domain? In other words, are the councils having to take more than they expected? That would give us an idea how much extra would be involved. I am sorry, I am not explaining myself very well. Let me try again.
	At the moment, the rubbish that a person puts out goes into the normal system which the councils run. In these schemes, the councils want to impose a limit so that the person who uses more than they should will be charged extra. Has the additional amount—that in addition to what they normally would have in just one wheelie-bin— been anticipated? I am sorry to be so specific, but it would be helpful to know. I welcome the Government's amendment because I think it does help us to identify future projects. I wish them well. I think there was one other thing that the Minister mentioned—it was to come before us but will now be put to the Commons later. Could he perhaps clarify that to me? The point on retail and plastic bags I accepted, but the other one I slightly missed.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, your Lordships certainly are very good when it comes to rubbish. It is a great subject for us all and we seem to be very interested in discussing it. It is most important. Looking at the average supermarket trolley—this week I had a good look at my own and at some others—one sees that it contains far more rubbish in plastic and paper wrapping than the plastic bags into which that is put as one goes away. A very good move would be to look carefully at packaging and see whether something can be done, perhaps through the standards authority, to reduce it. I am not sure whether this was said in Committee, but it would be far more useful than limiting plastic bags—although plastic bags are a very good advertisement for the cause and I entirely support it. The packaging in a full supermarket trolley is enormous. The rubbish that one puts into the plastic bag, after one has used the things one has bought—the plastic bag that it originally came in—is far more than the plastic bag itself. I think there are not many people who operate their kitchen who would disagree with that.
	The other point—I am not sure whether it has been made—is the increase in fly-tipping which is going to happen as a result of this. In Germany, they have been very disciplined about the whole subject for many years. They are used to it. I do not think there is a lot of fly-tipping—I may be wrong. My impression is that the system works rather well. In this country, people in cities close to the countryside or to a park are going to resent having to pay enormous amounts, so they are going to just put their rubbish into the back of a car and dump it somewhere. As someone who lives not terribly far from the city—where people are already not very tidy about what they do with their old beds, prams and so on—and on a farm where one is constantly having to remove rubbish, I fear that fly-tipping will become very much worse. I wonder whether the Government have considered strengthening the legislation about that alongside the legislation about charging for rubbish, because I think it would be very helpful. Incidentally, it is not only city people who fly-tip. Fly-tipping happens from villages and small towns, too, but particularly from the edges of cities, where the countryside is not too far away.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, asked me about an issue I raised in my speech. We proposed to bring forward an amendment in the Commons. I know it is in the Q & A and I cannot put my finger on it. Now I have lost the page in my notes and I do apologise. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, asked me about the people charged. What we want is for the local authorities to have the opportunity if they wish—and it is up to them—to merge the scheme under the pilots with the council tax collection. As he said, we are not talking about large sums of money here. I think we estimated £30, £40 or £50, at the most, either as a rebate or as a charge. Linking it with the council tax, if they have a system for that, should actually be efficient for everybody, so I do not see that as the problem. I have made notes on everyone's speech and I cannot find them. I do apologise.
	From that point of view, we are not saying how local authorities should actually deal with the rebate. I would like to think of the rebate first and the charge second, and try to make it revenue neutral anyway. It is up to them how they do it. We do not know which local authorities they are going to be. As we said in Committee, we do not know which parts of which local authorities they are going to be. We have got to leave it to the local authorities. That is not saying we are not interested; we sure are interested. In this respect—I understand why the noble Lord raises it—we have to trust local government. We may be able to elucidate on this in the other place.
	I realise that revenue neutrality is controversial. The noble Lord asked me in what circumstances we would abolish it. We think that revenue-neutral schemes are the right way forward and the work to date supports the view. But these are pilots and that is the whole point about piloting. This is a classic case from schools of government. If you are going to do something national, roll it out a bit at a time. Whatever you do, if it is major, pilot it first to see whether it works. This is normally what we have done. The old social security department and the DWP used pilots to operate. We cannot therefore give the answers; to a large extent, they depend on how the pilots go. We want to learn the lessons, including, I suppose—I do not know—some negative lessons. We should look at all the good criteria; a good recycling service is crucial. As the noble Baroness said, there must be provisions dealing with fly-tipping. We will look again at all of those issues if the evidence points that way. We must learn lessons. We do not have other motives; we simply do not know. This is a question of trying it out with local government as a partner. We do not have all the answers.
	The noble Baroness rightly said that I had referred to Germany on two occasions. I have warned inside Defra that we should not talk about giving a lead, particularly on anaerobic digestion. Farmers in this country—particularly farmers from England who have seen what has been going on in Germany for years—would laugh at me if I said to them that we are giving a lead; I wrote this in a note a couple of days ago. We are way behind. It is no good saying that we are a leader; we are not. People will not believe us if we tell porkies like that.
	Virtually every scheme that it is possible to pilot in this area is operating somewhere in the world. We made that clear in the original consultation. We are not inventing the wheel. We are a small island and we are running out of landfill, and landfill is bad anyway. We must therefore make reductions and encourage people to recycle more. We can give a lead on many things but on that we are taking evidence from other areas. The evidence from some of the examples I gave shows that this can work; there have been big reductions in what goes into landfill and there are huge advantages in terms of what is recycled.
	The noble Lord asked about instalments; I have answered that: it is up to the local authority. We tested that in the pilots. One local authority may want to take the charges one way and another may want to go another way; that is the whole point of the pilots.
	The noble Lord said that if awards or penalties were made in advance, there would be no behavioural incentive, but there is—it is in the next round. The process operates on an annual basis and the pilots, if I recall correctly, can run for up to three years. Local authorities will have the data on the levels of waste produced; they will relate to bins and be weight-based or volume-based. That can be built into the next round. People's behaviour would be affected.
	I have specifically not used the P-word. I have referred to single-use carrier bags, and I am sticking to that because that is what I have been instructed to do. This will be dealt with in the other place. Somewhere in my speech there is something about a specific amendment that we intend to move in the Commons; I shall find it before the evening is over. When I discussed it earlier, I said that I thought it would be introduced not at Third Reading but in the Commons. In about 50 pages of Q and A, I saw a specific reference to it being introduced in the Commons. The noble Baroness asked me about that. I am a bit surprised that I have not had a copy of the page whizzed along to me. I will try to find it myself.

Lord Greaves: My Lords, does the Minister not understand that there is a great deal of cynicism and scepticism out there about this being intended as a money-raising and tax-raising process? Simply taking out of the Bill the ability to make it such would make it much easier for the Government to sell this scheme to the cynics and the sceptics.
	While I am on my feet, I forgot to ask the Minister a question; I hope that he will be kind and let me ask it now. Is it fair that someone who is moving into a house, as a new tenant or new occupier, should be penalised for the behaviour of the people who were in the house previously? Surely that is not fair; if there is a charge or penalty, that should surely go with the people who lived there previously.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, my experience—I have not moved that often—is that local authorities and the utilities providers are meticulous about, for example, reading the meter; your liabilities start on the day you move. The people who have moved out are under a legal obligation about all that they need to do—to leave the place clean and to have got rid of all the rubbish; that is also in the sales contract. There is not an issue there. Of course it would be unfair if people were saddled with the liabilities of others but that is dealt with in the moving process—in the tenancy agreement or the lease and deeds—and the normal rules for utilities and local government apply. You pay council tax and the rubbish tax from the day that you go in; you do not pay anybody else's council tax or rubbish tax.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Rooker: moved Amendment No. 213:
	Schedule 5, page 62, line 37, leave out from beginning to end of line 24 on page 63 and insert—
	"Charges in respect of residual domestic waste
	4 (1) A waste reduction scheme may include provision for charging by reference to—
	(a) the amount of residual domestic waste collected from premises,(b) the size of receptacles used for the purposes of the collection of residual domestic waste from premises,(c) the number of receptacles used for such purposes, or(d) the frequency with which residual domestic waste is collected from premises,or by reference to any combination of those factors.
	(2) The scheme may, in particular, make provision for occupiers of premises—
	(a) to be required (by notice under section 46) to place residual domestic waste for collection in receptacles of a specified kind,(b) to be required (by such notice) to place such waste in receptacles that are identified by such means as may be specified, or(c) to be required to do both,and for a charge to be made by the authority in respect of the receptacles, the means of identifying them or both.
	(3) A charge under this paragraph in respect of a receptacle is in addition to any charge under section 46 in respect of the cost of providing the receptacle.
	(4) The amount of any charge under this paragraph need not be related to the authority's costs.
	(5) The scheme may make provision as to the person or persons by whom any charge is payable.
	(6) The scheme may—
	(a) require any charge to be paid in advance on the basis of an estimate of the amount that is likely to be payable in respect of any premises; or(b) require payments in respect of any charge to be made on account or by instalments."

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I beg to move.

[Amendments Nos. 213A to 213C, as amendments to Amendment No. 213, not moved.]
	On Question, Amendment No. 213 agreed to.

Lord Rooker: moved Amendments Nos. 214 to 217:
	Schedule 5, page 63, line 27, leave out "or 5"
	Schedule 5, page 63, line 29, leave out from "to" to "does" in line 30 and insert "pay a charge under paragraph 4"
	Schedule 5, page 63, line 33, leave out "paragraphs 4 and 5" and insert "paragraph 4"
	Schedule 5, page 63, line 36, leave out "paragraph 4 or 5" and insert "a waste reduction scheme"
	On Question, amendments agreed to.
	[Amendment No. 217A not moved.]

Lord Rooker: moved Amendment No. 218:
	Schedule 5, page 63, line 41, leave out "4(2) or 5(2)" and insert "4(4)"
	On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Rooker: moved Amendment No. 219:
	Schedule 5, page 65, line 11, at end insert—
	"( ) The regulations may in particular provide—
	(a) for appeals against determinations or any failure to make a determination,(b) for the appointment of persons or bodies to hear appeals, and(c) for charges to be recoverable, if a county court so orders, as if they were payable under a county court order."

Lord Rooker: My Lords, even though charges under a waste reduction scheme are likely to be relatively small, it is important that local authorities have the tools to collect them where people fail to pay. That is why I am bringing forward government Amendment No. 219; it would allow the Secretary of State to make regulations allowing authorities to collect charges owed more efficiently, through the county court system. This is an accepted, standard approach that has been used many times over. Some useful comparisons include the Traffic Management Act 2004, the Social Security Administration Act 1992, the National Minimum Wage Act 1998 and the Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Act 2003.
	If the Secretary of State were to exercise this power, Amendment No. 219 would allow the local authority, having followed a fair and appropriate appeals process, to collect the debt by registering the outstanding waste charge with the county court as if it were a court order. Standard county court enforcement mechanisms, such as attachment of earnings orders, could then be used.
	Without this amendment, the local authority would first have to commence a new claim in the county court and obtain a county court judgment before it could enforce the debt. The amendment therefore allows an authority to use a fair but more efficient debt collection process, thereby saving time and money for authorities and taxpayers. This is a considered approach. While removing unnecessary duplication of work, it still ensures that residents have ample opportunity to appeal if they do not think that they should be paying the charge for whatever reason.
	Paragraph 9 of Schedule 2AA already requires waste-reduction schemes to have an appeals process in place and we intend to provide further best-practice guidance to local authorities on this aspect. This is a key requirement. That is why we are also proposing, via Amendment No. 219, to make it clear that regulations made by the Secretary of State under the schedule may include provision concerning appeals against determinations or any failure to make a determination, and for the appointment of persons or bodies to hear appeals. This reinforces the seriousness that we attach to making sure that the right systems are in place. In particular, if in future, following pilots and any decision to roll out, there is widespread take-up of waste reduction schemes, it may make sense to set up an appeals body to deal specifically with appeals by residents against their waste charges and rebates. I beg to move.

Lord Greaves: had given notice of his intention to move, as an amendment to Amendment No. 219, Amendment No. 219A.
	Schedule 5, leave out lines 6 and 7

Lord Greaves: My Lords, I welcome sub-paragraphs (a) and (b) of Amendment No. 219, which sets up an appeals system. We discussed this issue in Committee and I am glad that the Government have responded to the idea that an appeals system is required. That is to be welcomed. Amendment No. 219A is moved for clarification, to find out why the Government thought it was necessary. The Minister has explained that well and satisfactorily. Presumably this means that, as well as steps such as attachment of earnings, bailiffs could be sent in to recover this sort of charge. I can see all sorts of interesting local press publicity at the idea of sending in the bailiffs to sort out the rubbish. Nevertheless, if these schemes are going to operate, this is a sensible way to proceed. Therefore I do not wish to move the amendment.

[Amendment No. 219A, as an amendment to Amendment No. 219, not moved.]

The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, from this Dispatch Box, we welcome the amendment. It puts in place a mechanism that several noble Lords considered would be needed. Like the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, I wonder whether the Minister can explain the procedure by which a ruling from the appeals panel would turn up in the county court. Is it not possible for the appeals panel to order that charges be recovered, and for that to be treated as though it came from the county court?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I will explain how we envisage an appeals body working. There are already many appeals bodies—the best example is the valuation tribunal, which considers council tax appeals. If residents consider that they are not liable to pay council tax, or disagree with the amount they are being billed, they can appeal first to a valuation tribunal. Following this, they generally have four weeks to appeal to the High Court in relation to a valuation tribunal's decision. In setting up an appeals body, we would look to draw on these experiences, as well as the lessons learnt specifically from the pilots. Any regulations would be subject to wide consultation. We would otherwise ensure that they were human rights-compliant. In other words, with five pilots, we could have five different financial collection appeal systems. That is the point of doing the pilots and we need to learn the lessons from them.
	The enforcement options would be the same as for a civil debt and would have broadly similar sanctions to those for non-payment of council tax—but without the sanction of imprisonment. That gives the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, no opportunity to raise another one. He has already had the bailiffs knocking down the door to get the money for the waste. No one is going to prison. Nor would we envisage bankruptcy or charges on property as a sanction for non-payment of the waste charge alone. Before these hares start running, we can make it absolutely clear—no imprisonment, no bankruptcy and no charges on property for non-payment of the waste charge alone.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Rooker: moved Amendment No. 220:
	Schedule 5, page 66, line 42, at end insert ";
	"specified" means specified in the waste reduction scheme."
	On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Davies of Oldham: moved Amendment No. 221:
	Schedule 5, page 66, line 46, at end insert—
	"Orders and regulations
	(1) An order under paragraph 2(3), 7(2) or 16(2) is subject to affirmative resolution procedure.
	(2) Section 161(3) (negative resolution procedure: orders) applies in relation to an order under paragraph 6(1), subject as follows.
	(3) An order under that paragraph is subject to affirmative resolution procedure if—
	(a) it is the first order to be made under that paragraph, or(b) it increases the limit for the time being set by an order under that paragraph by more than is necessary to reflect changes in the value of money since that limit was set.
	(4) Section 161(2) (negative resolution procedure: regulations) applies in relation to regulations under paragraph 12, subject as follows.
	(5) Regulations under that paragraph are subject to affirmative resolution procedure if they modify an enactment contained in an Act of Parliament.
	(6) Where an order or regulations are subject to "affirmative resolution procedure" the Secretary of State must not make the order or regulations unless a draft of the statutory instrument containing them has been laid before and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament."."

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I shall speak also to government Amendments Nos. 223 and 226. These amendments are in direct response to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. We are seeking to ensure full and proper parliamentary scrutiny of any statutory instruments that the Secretary of State may make in relation to waste reduction schemes. It is important that we get this right. Parliament has a key role to play throughout the piloting and subsequent consideration of waste reduction schemes. We are grateful to the committee for its advice on how to establish the right relationship here.
	Under Amendment No. 221, any order that set a cap on the amount that any household can be charged in a single year would become subject to the affirmative resolution procedure in two circumstances—the first time a cap is set, and if ever the level of the cap is increased by more than inflation. In all other cases, the setting of a cap would be subject to the negative resolution procedure. I reassure the House that we are taking the power to cap charges only as a final reserve measure. We trust local authorities to work with their residents to come up with a reasonable level of charge. We do not actually anticipate needing to use the power. Amendment No. 221 would also strengthen the procedure where the Secretary of State made regulations amending an Act of Parliament. In this instance, the regulations would need to be approved by affirmative resolution. In all other cases, a negative resolution would apply. This is a sensible strengthening of Parliament's role.
	Amendment No. 221 also makes technical improvements to the way in which the provisions are drafted. It moves the explanation of which parliamentary procedures apply to which statutory instruments into the new Schedule 2AA to the Environmental Protection Act. For clarity, we have added an explanation of what the affirmative resolution procedure involves.
	Amendment No. 223 is consequential to the substantive changes made by Amendment No. 221. It amends the Environmental Protection Act 1990 to reflect which parliamentary procedures would now apply to which statutory instruments in Schedule 2AA, as per paragraph 17 of that schedule.
	Taking on board the last of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee's recommendations on waste provisions, government Amendment No. 226 also seeks to give Parliament a stronger role in scrutinising subordinate legislation. This time we are talking about subordinate legislation that the Secretary of State might make in the hypothetical situation where waste provisions were changed prior to rollout. We agree with the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee that any such subordinate legislation should be subject to some kind of parliamentary procedure. Again, this ensures that Parliament has a full role in taking forward this policy. We envisage that we might need to make subordinate legislation to deal with technical matters regarding schemes; for example, what a scheme's accounts should detail.
	I hope that the House will be reassured by this strengthening of parliamentary scrutiny of the waste provisions in the Bill and will recognise that the Government have followed the recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I beg to move.

The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, I see that we have three amendments that are substantial in length if not in content. From this Dispatch Box, we welcome the principle of these amendments, but we would be glad of the Minister's response to a number of questions. Schedule 5 applies both to pilots and to rollout. It does not, however, distinguish between them. When sub-paragraph (3) of Amendment No. 221 refers to the first order to be made, does that mean the first order for the first pilot, the first order for the first pilot and then for the first rollout or the first order for each scheme, pilot or rollout, for each participating waste collection authority? If it means the first order for the first pilot, is there an implication that the Secretary of State, in deciding to give permission for a pilot, will already have in mind the approximate charging levels that he will approve? Will it also mean that he anticipates no difference across the country in the levels that will be charged by different authorities in different circumstances?

Lord Greaves: My Lords, I thank the Government for responding to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, for tabling these amendments and, indeed, for responding to the discussions in Committee on these same matters. This is one area in which this House might have had something to say had the Government not tabled their amendments, but they have done so entirely sensibly and, I am sure, entirely on the balance of the arguments. They are to be congratulated on that.
	The noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, touched on one of the difficulties that we have had with Schedule 5 in that it covers both the pilots and the rollout. The Government's argument is that because there will have been substantial scrutiny of the schedule as part of the discussions on the Bill, that will suffice for any national rollout. Some of us have difficulties with that, as there is all the difference in the world between setting up what can happen in various pilots and deciding which of those schemes will be adopted or totally amended in the rollouts. The scrutiny is not terribly satisfactory, which is why we spent quite a lot of time in Committee probing how the decisions about the results of the pilots and the way in which the schemes will be rolled out nationally will be taken. This and subsequent government amendments improve this a little, but there are still problems, and there really must be a way in which Parliament can look at this properly after the pilots have taken place. However, this part of the Bill is a great deal better now than it was, and on that basis I am happy to support the amendments on behalf of the Liberal Democrats.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. I am rather more grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, who did not ask me a specific question, as the noble Lord, the Earl of Montrose, did. As the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, generously indicated, we sought through the amendments to follow the clear indications and recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee on how we should improve the Bill. We all recognise that consideration of the pilots and the rollouts is important.
	The noble Lord, the Duke of Montrose, asked quite a specific question about the cap on the charge to be made during the pilots or the rollouts. The first order, whether made during the piloting or after rollout, will contain this provision. It is up to local authorities to set the level of the charge and not for the Secretary of State to have a particular charge in mind. There is no reason why the charge would be the same across the country. In fact, I think we will recognise that there will be differences among local authorities in this. It goes without saying that we hope those differences will be within an acceptable range, otherwise the local authorities are likely to find that residents will be outraged if they discover that some local authorities are charging enormously greater sums than others. Nevertheless, variations will occur, as they do in the services that local authorities currently offer.
	Why is not the decision to roll out powers to all local authorities in England subject to the affirmative procedure? The Bill requires us to report finally on at least one of the pilots before deciding to roll out powers—the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. In reality, it is likely that we will need to report on most, if not all, of the pilots before having enough evidence to decide on rollouts. We therefore accept the point emphasised by the noble Lord, the Duke of Montrose, that this needs to be subject to careful scrutiny. We also hope to have a further debate in Parliament prior to any decision to roll out. This will be in addition to the careful scrutiny that the waste provisions will receive—indeed, have already received—as part of the Bill, and as they undoubtedly will receive at the other end.

Lord Greaves: My Lords, this will save me asking the question later. When the Government say, as they do in various documents, that they expect to have a debate in Parliament, can they guarantee that that will include a debate in this House?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I do not have a note on the actual process that we will follow, so I cannot give that guarantee. I will have to write to the noble Lord and send the same letter to other noble Lords who are greatly interested in this area. I have no decision on this. The House will recognise that the Bill started in this House, but that we must have due regard to the position on all matters in the Bill that will be adopted in the other place perhaps with even greater emphasis on local authorities, given the symbiotic relationships between any effective and hard-working Member of Parliament and his or her local authority. I do not want the noble Lord to press me too far on this, but we accept that we will certainly need further consideration in Parliament beyond consideration of the Bill itself. I at least give that undertaking.

The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, I sympathise with Minister over the problems that arise over titles. Even last night, when I sat at the long table, the waitress came up behind me and said, "Now what would you like to have this evening, my Lady?". I have learnt to respond to a great many titles in this place. I have the title of Lord, and I have the title of Earl, but I am afraid that the official title that I go by here is Duke.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I must apologise to the noble Duke. The note from the Box was as ever entirely accurate in that respect. The fault was entirely mine.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Davies of Oldham: moved Amendments Nos. 222 and 223:
	Schedule 5, page 66, line 46, at end insert—
	"In section 46 of that Act (receptacles for household waste), in subsection (1) (requirement for occupier to use receptacles specified by waste collection authority), for the words from "to place" to the end of the subsection substitute "—
	(a) to place the waste for collection in receptacles of a kind and number specified,(b) to place it in receptacles identified by such means as may be specified, or (c) to do both."."
	Schedule 5, page 67, line 1, leave out paragraph 3 and insert—
	"3 (1) Section 161 of that Act (regulations, orders and directions) is amended as follows.
	(2) After subsection (2) (negative resolution procedure: regulations) insert—
	"(2ZA) Subsection (2) does not apply to a statutory instrument containing regulations under paragraph 12 of Schedule 2AA to this Act to which paragraph 17(5) of that Schedule applies."
	(3) In subsection (4) (instruments not subject to negative resolution procedure), after paragraph (a) insert—
	"(aa) which contains—(i) an order under paragraph 2(3), 7(2) or 16(2) of Schedule 2AA to this Act, or(ii) an order under paragraph 6(1) of that Schedule to which paragraph 17(3) of that Schedule applies, or"."
	On Question, amendments agreed to.
	Clause 61 [Waste reduction provisions: piloting]:

Lord Greaves: moved Amendment No. 223A:
	Clause 61, page 28, line 20, leave out subsection (2)

Lord Greaves: My Lords, the amendment seeks to take out of the Bill the provision that there can be a maximum of only five pilots for the waste management provisions. This matter has raised eyebrows among everyone who has been involved in the discussions on this in Committee, in the House of Commons and outside Parliament. No one quite understands why the Government have come up with the figure of five. It has been suggested that it is because finance for only five has been made available in the Defra budget. We know that the finance is £4,500 over three years, unless it has changed from what the Minister told us in Committee. Surely, however, even that depends on the scale and size of the pilots; there could be 10 little pilots or five big ones. A pilot is defined as a waste collection authority taking part in the scheme. It has also been suggested, cynically, that only five local authorities may want to do it and that the Government cannot find any more. We will find out later when the Government make formal requests to the local authorities to put themselves forward.
	In Committee, we had long discussions about the nature of the pilots and the importance of having as many of the options and sub-options that the Government are putting forward piloted. We want genuine comparisons, so there must be a sack-based scheme, a volume-based scheme and a weight-based scheme, et cetera. The Government and Parliament would then have a proper basis on which to make decisions, which, as the Minister said, would be evidence-based.
	In addition to the different types of schemes, there are different types of areas. I shall not go through the long list of about a dozen that I rolled off in Committee. You do not have to think for long to realise that there are a large number of different collection authorities in different areas, and that the areas can differ in terms of the nature of housing, the local society, the local community and so on. The more that people discuss this, the more it seems to be understood that five collection authorities will make it very difficult.
	I want to call in evidence an excellent report published since the Committee stage by the House of Commons Communities and Local Government Select Committee, entitled, Refuse Collection: Waste Reduction Pilots, Sixth Report of Session 2007-08. Cynics might think that I agree with a great deal in it, and I do. It is clear that when these provisions go to the House of Commons there will be some very interesting and vigorous debates.
	Paragraph 7 of the report states:
	"We do not believe that allowing only five of England's waste collection authorities to introduce schemes, covering four different collection methods, in a mixture of rural and urban settings, and across the whole country, will provide significant additional evidence on which to judge whether all authorities should be able to offer such schemes".
	That says what I was trying to say, but rather better.
	Paragraph 11 states:
	"We repeat what we said six months ago: it is hard to see why any council will want to set up a complicated charging scheme that earns it no money and risks widespread public disapproval. The Government's decision to seek only five councils appears to reflect the understandable reluctance of local authorities to do so".
	That is the House of Commons committee being cynical.
	Paragraph 14 states:
	"The decision to limit the number of schemes to just five, none starting before April 2009, all running for three years before Parliament is asked to decide on a national roll-out, means that financial incentive schemes will have no discernible effect on local authorities' duty to meet European Union landfill diversion targets before penalties fall due in 2010 and 2013".
	The Government may speed that up a little with their amendment on the rollout provisions.
	Finally, paragraph 27 states:
	"The Government's retreat has resulted in a messy compromise that achieves the worst of both worlds—maximum hostile media coverage for a set of pilot schemes that will have only limited impact before EU fines fall due in 2010 and 2013 ... We recommend that the Government withdraw its financial incentive pilot proposals from the Climate Change Bill and reconsider devolving the power to introduce schemes to local authorities themselves".
	That is pretty strong stuff, and is a bit stronger than I would say. I was quite surprised when I read it. Clearly, there will be some interesting discussions in the House of Commons. If that is what an all-party group of Members of Parliament is saying, surely the Government should be thinking seriously about whether they have got this figure of only five wrong. I would suggest that they have. I beg to move.

The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, I can only add from this Dispatch Box my confusion as to why the number of pilots has been capped and capped at only five. Given the enormous scope of this Bill, we are looking at issues that some people have said will require cutbacks similar to those in Britain during the Second World War. Why is the entire waste section limited to five schemes? Does the Minister think that five schemes are sufficient to test adequately all available alternatives?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, why do you want to know? It is five. Why do you want to know where that number came from? I have nothing else to say. The full intellectual might of the Cabinet—of the Government—has arrived at a decision of five. If the House of Commons, where the elected people's representatives are, want another figure, it can change it: but the number is five.

Lord Greaves: My Lords, why do I want to know? We want to know why all the legislation that comes to this House is as it is. We assume that there is a sensible, rational reason behind it. In order to pass legislation, we should know what that reason is. The Minister referred to the "full intellectual might" of pretty well everyone in the country—I thought that he was going to list the chancellor of Oxford University and goodness knows who else.
	People say that irony has gone out of fashion. I congratulate the Minister on his irony, which is better than mine. I think that his will come forward in Hansard better than mine normally does. If this Bill had not originated in this House, I think that we would have wanted to divide the House on this. It is silly and illogical, but it is so silly and illogical that the House of Commons perhaps will be able to do something with it. If someone of the Minister's calibre—he is rightly thought to be one of the best Ministers in this House—

Noble Lords: Hear, hear.

Lord Greaves: My Lords, if he can come up with this answer, the Government have to think again. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I beg to move that further consideration on Report be now adjourned. In moving the Motion, I suggest that Report stage begins again not before 8.30 pm.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Parents: Quality Time

asked Her Majesty's Government what plans they have to help parents of school-age children, especially those on low incomes, to spend quality time with their children at weekends.
	The right reverend Prelate said: My Lords, I am very grateful to have secured this debate, and I thank all those who have come to take part in it. The purpose of this Question is to explore how best to enable parents of school-age children to spend quality time with their children at weekends, and to make the case for extending the right to request flexible working to parents of all children up to the age of 18, so that they are able to do this.
	The concept of Monday to Friday, 9 to 5, as the normal working week has long ceased to be the norm for a lot of working people. Around eight out of 10 working fathers and more than half of working mothers work some unsocial hours. Yet the structure of the school week remains exactly the same, so that many parents are now at work when their children are at home.
	The impact of unsocial working on the time parents have with their children is exacerbated when the parents also have to work at weekends. Three out of four working families experience some weekend work and in more than half of these—about 2.4 million families—at least one parent is working regularly at weekends. For lone parents, the impact of weekend work can be even more significant.
	The Government's strategy for children, Every Child Matters, recognised that parents, carers and families are the most important influence on outcomes for children and young people. However we define good parenting, it involves spending quality time with the child and not in work. The patient, long-term creative process of making another human being, which continues into young adulthood, is one of the most important tasks of a parent—whether mother or father.
	Research by the National Centre for Social Research found that working-couple mothers, working atypical hours during weekdays, spend less time reading, playing with and teaching their children. It also found evidence that children whose parents work evenings and weekends spend less time on homework and more time on social life and entertainment. That was true both of children aged eight to 10 and 14 to18 year-olds. As noble Lords will be aware, the nurturing of children does not get easier as a child gets older. Children of secondary school age will benefit particularly from parental support through the often difficult transition to secondary school in years seven and eight, and subsequently through the often turbulent teenage years, particularly at examination and other crisis points. The availability of flexible work options would help parents to provide that key support by being with their children when they are most needed. This points to the strong desirability of extending the right to request flexible working to parents of children up to the age of 18.
	The longitudinal Edinburgh study of youth transitions and crime found that the higher the level of parental supervision, involvement in their child's life and parental trust, the lesser the chance of delinquency. However 72 per cent of parents feel that they do not have enough time to get involved in their children's education because of work commitments, childcare difficulties and lack of time in general. Many couples currently use "shift parenting" as a way of managing their time to avoid childcare costs and to get round inflexible work schedules. If this regime is maintained over a prolonged period, both family time and a couple's relationship itself can suffer severely. Nearly half of parents say that work has stopped them being home to put their children to bed, and more than half said that it affected their ability to help with homework, or take children to after-school activities.
	Let us think about who is most likely to be working unsocial hours. Workers contracted to work unsocial hours tend to be the lower skilled and lower paid. The families most likely to suffer from the effects of unsocial working are those that are already at a social disadvantage. Low-income workers are most vulnerable to requests to work at weekends and the least likely to be able to resist the request.
	The Government have to be congratulated on the progress they have made in making flexible working a reality for many families. In 2003 they introduced the right to request flexible working for parents of children under six and all children with disabilities, and then in 2006 they included carers of disabled adults. The good news is that while this has benefited families, businesses and employers that have allowed flexible working have also reported benefits. They have benefited from improved productivity, reduced sickness and absenteeism, and improved retention rates. The Work-Life Balance Employer Survey revealed that 92 per cent of employers believe that people work best when they can balance their work and other aspects of their lives. We must remember that the right to request is not a right to have flexible working. Legislation provides businesses with eight reasons why they may legitimately turn down a request to work flexibly. However, providing a legislative right to request means that employers and employees have a formal route to discuss the issue. They can have a formal basis for the conversation.
	In summary, I believe there to be five reasons why the Government and policy-makers should act on all this evidence and extend to all parents of children under 18 the right to request flexible working. The first reason is the need to adapt public policy further in step with changing patterns of work. A major part of government policy in combating poverty is to maximise the number of people in work. However, it is also increasingly emphasising the responsibility of parents. Flexible working is the essential link that would help to make these two policies compatible.
	Secondly, the Department for Children, Schools and Families continues to promote the important role that parents play in all aspects of a child's life, and substantial public funds are now targeted at parenting education. In light of this, it makes sense to extend the right to request flexible working to all parents of school-age children so that they are able to play their part in their children's education. The third reason is that parents working long, unsocial hours threaten family stability. Family breakdown is potentially damaging to couples and especially their children. Society also bears an increased demand for housing and welfare benefits when families fragment and break up.
	The fourth reason why the Government should be concerned is that the combination of relational poverty and material poverty is socially unjust. Most parents working unsocial hours and weekends do not do so out of choice, but because they feel they have no alternative. We need to give all parents real choices about how they manage their work-life balance. The fifth reason is that there are potentially significant gains to be made in terms of savings in public expenditure by reducing anti-social behaviour and other symptoms of social breakdown.
	Those five reasons all point in one direction: that the case for extending the right to request flexible working to all parents of children up to 18 is overwhelmingly strong. This in turn will enable parents of school-age children to spend quality time with their children at times when they are not at school, particularly at weekends. I very much look forward to listening to the contributions of other noble Lords and to the Minister in his summing up.

Lord Elton: My Lords, I apologise to the House and to the right reverend Prelate for missing the first few sentences of his introduction. I plead the fact that I arrived here at the stroke of half-past seven, which I understood was the earliest time we could get going.
	I had hoped to make a speech out of the points that the right reverend Prelate omitted to make. Unfortunately he has left me very little material with which to work. However, I endorse the general drift and some aspects of what he said from my own slightly different point of view.
	There are two aspects that I can bring to your Lordships that need emphasising. The first is the criminological one: the vast majority of crime is committed by young people. Almost all of them are under 25, but a very large number is under 18. The years between six and 18 are typically the years in which children become criminals. The Government need no persuading of the importance of parental involvement in education, for instance, in raising standards of educational attainment.
	The other aspect, which links with the first, is from a long time ago, before present legislation that your Lordships have been invited by the right reverend Prelate to consider, was introduced. I was teaching in a comprehensive school with 1,500 pupils, all of whom were boys, incidentally, which means that it was not truly comprehensive at all. It was a rather violent place; the man who mended the windows was always four windows behind the summer holiday repairs than he had been the previous year. I had a knife drawn on me once. The feature that I want to draw to your Lordships' attention is parents' evening.
	The school was banded and the top third had a lot of academic ability. The correlation was that I was lucky to get home by 11 pm. It took me three-quarters of an hour to get home and a quarter of an hour to clear up after the parents had gone. I seem to remember that the evening started about half-past five. For the middle band of the school, I could be home comfortably to have a meal at half-past seven. The bottom band took only three-quarters of an hour. That correlation between parental interest and academic performance was stark and it has remained in my mind ever since. Therefore any change to legislation or regulation we can make to give parents who wish to have the opportunity to involve themselves in their children's education is very much to be argued for.
	The formative years between six and 18 are when such involvement is most acutely in demand if it is to ward off criminal behaviour and tendencies. One does not like talking about children and criminality in the same breath, but children are often launched on that course as the result of academic failure. It is the frustration of failing to express oneself and be appreciated in class, the failure to be able to deploy a child's interest and communicability—possibly because of undetected dyslexia but also for other reasons—that most frequently vents itself initially in anti-social behaviour. That leads to exclusion so that the child is on the streets with nothing to do and nobody to look after it. Very soon that child coalesces with others, is probably permanently excluded and is then well on the road to a criminal career.
	I do not want to overstate the connection, but I am absolutely certain that the Government's conviction that academic behaviour is in some important respects influenced by parental involvement goes equally for social behaviour. In this House Ministers have to think on behalf of the whole of Government, so not only is there a department of education aspect to this, but also aspects involving the Ministry of Justice and the Home Office. These departments have a common interest in improving the lot of society as a whole. An important part of that will be that if we can get even a small but significantly higher percentage of parents involved in their children's education, it will yield a pay-off. In my days at the Department of Health, I discovered that I was responsible for the welfare of children in local authority secure accommodation. Through that route I was introduced to non-custodial sentences which immensely benefited children and reduced their reoffending rates. But by the time they were reoffending, they were the responsibility of the Home Office, so the Department of Health could save no money by pursuing that policy. And when I got to the Home Office, it was not interested in spending money on children before they had reached the age at which they became that department's responsibility.
	If we are now in an age of joined-up government thinking, I hope that the Minister will ask his colleagues in other departments to consider whether we cannot achieve greater parental involvement in children in school by many different means, including by giving the parents of children between the ages of six and 18 the right to apply for, if not the right to have, flexible working hours. We could then nibble away at some of the eight excuses that can be given in response to their request.

Lord Addington: My Lords, I thank the right reverend Prelate for introducing this subject, and the noble Lord, Lord Elton, for a speech which covered the area I call, "If ever in doubt, one can always ask for joined-up government". He very elegantly reflected the fact that it is required in virtually all areas of government activity. Whether it will be any more successful with this department that it is in others remains to be seen, but the fact is that the knock-on from what one government department does to another is unavoidable. One should always bear that in mind.
	The title of the debate turns on the issue of school-age children, quality time, low incomes and weekends. I thought that maybe I could score an easy hit here by talking about keeping Sunday special. But then I thought, "Aha! Tony Hancock and the dreadful traditional British Sunday afternoon". I recall how he went on about there being nothing to do and how dreadful it all was, hanging around waiting for the next badly cooked meal to turn up. Sadly I cannot remember exactly the eloquence of his language, but that is roughly the image conjured up. However, this is about something else: the fact that we do not have designated rest time at the same time, so we cannot interact.
	Many of the positive things in life depend on people being able to gather together. I was trying to avoid talking about organised sports again, but I am afraid that there is a knock-on here. We should encourage people to take part in sporting activities. Let us face it, for any form of sport you need at least two people, and for the most common sport you need 22 people. No, let us make that 23 because you cannot play football without a referee. Twenty-three people must gather together in a formalised structure, all turning up and leaving at roughly the same time. We can then bring children into it with coaching, but it definitely needs some more co-ordination.
	It is said that everyone is in favour of preserving their weekends, but everyone is also in favour of doing the shopping, having houses cleaned, and the service industries being available. There are no two ways about it; that results in a degree of conflict. We are not going to go back to the dreadful Sunday afternoon, even if the Sunday league sides did manage to get out in the morning. Indeed, the right reverend Prelate is probably in direct competition with those Sunday league teams. Those days are gone. But if we are going to compensate for that type of activity, we need to make it easier to do.
	The right reverend Prelate referred to families on low incomes, and thus put his finger on a very important point. If you have sufficient income, you can get round the problem by employing people to do the running around for you. Although that is not as good as the parents being there, there is some compensation because at least the child is safe, being cared for and some attention is being paid to it. Let us face it, certain parenting skills may not be apparent in the parents so they may get someone in to do the job for them. That is the service industry taken to its nth degree, if you like. But that is not a choice for those with low incomes, and for one-parent families there are real problems.
	Let us not beat about the bush: flexible working does not provide all the answers. No matter how flexible the hours, if you are a single parent on a low income, you have to shuffle half a deck of cards and there is a limit to how many good hands you can get from it. We have to ensure that parents are given some support, and that often means that the state must be the provider in the form of local government for sporting activities or other structured leisure pursuits that are most appropriate and accessible to those with the least spare time.
	How are we going to balance this? We can chase the argument for hours, but as the noble Lord, Lord Elton, said, the fact is that if you do not expect people to achieve in, for example, academic pursuits, the parents are not going to waste time on them. That is particularly so if they are under time pressure and have to meet the expense of getting to parents' evenings. It may mean that they have to miss a shift at work. The lower your income, the less likely you are to give up some of it. It is a vicious circle.
	Do the Government have some answers to this? How do they think they can encourage those on low incomes to take part in social activities together? Although the idea of families sitting at home reading to each other is commendable, if there are low intellectual skills or there is dyslexia—I thank the noble Lord, Lord Elton, for mentioning it before I did—they will not do it. They need to get involved in something outside. Do the Government have any ideas for how they can engage this group? Although flexible working will help, it is not the answer unto itself. For this group, that is harder to reach, we need to find more creative means. If the Minister has answers in the form of schemes, I will be very interested to hear about them.
	I come back to the point about sports. Any ideas for how parents can assist in organised activities would be welcome. It may be Dad sitting on the touchline, screaming at his child to get faster up the wing and get that cross that he never could, but at least it is involvement. If you can also get Dad to take a coaching course, that is a much better type of involvement. How are the Government expecting to facilitate this type of activity for those on low incomes? On a low income, most of the compensatory factors that other people will bring in are simply not available.

Lord Dearing: My Lords, we are in debt to the right reverend Prelate for engaging our minds on a major issue and for offering a practical solution—or contribution to a solution—to a problem we know about. When the White Paper Every Child Matters was published in 2003, it devoted a whole chapter to the issue of parents. It said:
	"The bond between the child and their parents is the most critical influence on a child's life. Parenting has a strong impact on a child's educational development, behaviour and mental health".
	It recognised that public policy had not in the past paid sufficient attention to that. It said:
	"By bringing policy on parenting into the DfES"—
	as it was then—
	"alongside policy on children, the Government has put it at the heart of children's services".
	Substance was given to this statement in the 2003 White Paper when, under Mr Brown's Government, we had established a Department for Children, Schools and Families—however difficult it may be to remember absolutely rightly the sequence in which those words come.
	The right reverend Prelate's Question draws attention particularly to families on low incomes. Those who are not disabled from work by incapacity or illness but who are in poverty find it necessary to accept long hours, working whatever hours they can—the anti-social hours that people do not want, including especially weekends. There is therefore a particular detriment to family life for those who live with the least of the world's resources. They have the most difficulty in offering their children the support and personal engagement that the Government and all political parties now recognise is essential for the well-being of the child and of our society.
	I again picked up the UNICEF report on child well-being in rich countries that was published last year. It brought home how relevant the issue of parenting is and how much it matters in our personal judgments and our own lifestyles to think through again our responsibilities as parents to our children. That of course applies equally to the duty on all of us, acting together as a society, to change our priorities. The UNICEF report makes uncomfortable reading for all of us. There has been criticism of it but you cannot get away from the central message. It put us at the bottom of the league of 21 nations. In two areas in particular, the two with the most direct relevance to parenting, we were outstandingly at the bottom, yards below the rest in the tables. The first was the behaviour of our young people and the other was what was described as a risk-taking culture. In those areas we were at the bottom of the 21. Both are closely related to family and to family engagement with young people.
	Since poverty and the concept of poverty lay so close to the heart of this issue, I very much welcomed the Chancellor's announcement in the Budget that the Government's intention is to commit £1.7 billion over the next two years to halving the number of children in poverty by 2010. But as it was said that it will be 2020 before we remove the rest from poverty, there is work to be done by other means. That brings us back to the right reverend Prelate's point.
	When I first read this document on the subject—which no doubt descended from heaven, with excellent briefing on the subject—as an old civil servant I thought: "You've got to be reasonable. You can't expect to jump all in one go from provision that covers children up to age six to provision that includes 18 year-olds. Let's compromise and go for 12". But then I read the evidence in the UNICEF report and realised that we have a specific problem in teenagers. The right reverend Prelate is therefore right. I am with him on going the whole way. The UNICEF report talks about behaviour in terms of eating and exercise, smoking at 15, engaging in violence or being a recipient of it, sexual involvement and use of contraceptives, and excessive drinking. Those are the kinds of thing where the family—if they are there and have the energy—can engage with their kids, take the issue on and attempt to deal with it. If they are not there and the kids are out in the streets, that behaviour is going to happen. We must address this issue within the age-range that the right reverend Prelate proposes.
	As I have two minutes left, I should like to widen the discussion slightly by referring to one other issue which is relevant to the issue of poverty: the working tax credit. Thanks to a footnote in that briefing, I picked up a report by the Institute for Public Policy Research which devotes a chapter to the working tax credit. It says:
	"The problems that have led to tax credit overpayments"—
	which currently amount to £4,000 million—
	"have been devastating in their effect".
	Of course we are talking about the low paid and the poor. The effect of this—the worry and stress it has caused in families—is that:
	"A recent survey of tax credit recipients found that almost half (49 per cent) were either less likely or definitely not going to make a claim in the future due to their experience".
	That is another area where the Government can do something. But it is very complex, and the staff administering the scheme are overwhelmed by the scale of the problem.
	I come back to where we started and to the right reverend Prelate's Motion. I congratulate him. Here is another practical thing the Government can do, and I hope the Minister and his colleagues will think about it.

Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, earlier today when I mentioned to the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, that I would be speaking in this debate, he suggested a four-word speech as a solution to the Question posed by the right reverend Prelate: chuck out the telly. Think about it, my Lords.
	I congratulate the right reverend Prelate on giving us the chance to talk about this issue today. I recall that he and I fought the good fight on the Work and Families Act when we tried to persuade the Government to extend the age limit of children whose parents can ask for flexible working. I very much support his call for the Government to increase that to the age of 18, because it is important for children of all ages to have their parents available when they are at home. It can be particularly hard for single parents, as I well recall. At a time when the Government are going to insist that single parents should go out to work once the child reaches 12, and that children should stay in education or training until they are 18, a bit of joined-up thinking is required. The age limit should certainly rise to 18.
	Schools are pretty consistent in their timings, apart from a week here and a week there at the beginning and end of the major holidays. There are some small flexibilities in the school day, mainly to avoid traffic jams in the morning and evening rather than to help parents. But what is the scope, now that the Government are concentrating on the concept of personalised learning, to have a flexible school day? If personalised programmes of work are to be developed, what is to stop a child asking for flexible working hours at school to fit in with his parents' working hours? Now there is a novel idea. The main need, however, is for parents to understand how important it is that they should spend time with their children. We should teach them that before they become parents—in other words, when they are at school themselves in parenting classes.
	I shall turn now to what parents can afford to do with their children when they are spending time with them. Of course, by "spending time with the child" we do not mean sitting alongside them on the sofa watching TV—although there is a place for a bit of that. How much better to do things together, such as sport, walking, birdwatching, astronomy, outings to places of interest, cinemas, theatres, music and so on. However, this can be an awful problem for families who do not have much money. Fortunately, many local authorities have schemes to help young people use council facilities such as swimming pools, gyms, tennis and basketball courts, libraries and so on at very little cost. Many local sports clubs and other interest groups do not cost much to join either, especially for juniors.
	It is really important that the local children's information services give parents information not just about childcare services but about activities that they can do with their children: toy libraries, playgrounds, council services and so on. Although it is important for councils to have subsidised schemes to help young people to pay for leisure activities, would it not be even better if poorer parents could also get the cost covered so that they could do those things together with their kids?
	One thing that really is a bonus these days is the family railcard, through which families can now have ridiculously cheap train trips if they plan ahead. That has come in since I was a young parent. Another good development since I had young children is the way in which museums have become so child-friendly. At very little or no cost, parents can take their children to some splendid museums where the interactive exhibits can keep them fascinated for hours. You can spend the whole day and have a meal, and of course they learn a lot quite painlessly. There are many I could name; the Natural History Museum in London, the Liverpool Museum and the science and transport museums in Manchester are ones that I would recommend, but there are lots more. I commend the museum curator profession for the way they have risen to the challenge of serving children and young families. Museums are also very good at making their facilities accessible for disabled children.
	I recommend one more thing that costs very little and many children enjoy: gardening. Children love to grow things, and a packet of seeds costs very little. It can give them a real sense of where food comes from and can contribute to their understanding of what makes a healthy diet. Growing your own veg has really taken off in the UK recently, thanks to TV programmes presented by people like Carol Klein and Jamie Oliver. I appeal to them not to forget the kids and to put some ideas into their programmes for busy parents to get kids interested in growing things, whether they have three acres or a pot on a balcony.
	It takes time and effort to be a good parent and some parents may not feel like it when they are tired. When a child wants a bedtime story it may be very tempting to say, "I'm too tired, get to bed". However, I recommend reading to children from the earliest age. It can be great fun; it can instil a sense of the joy of books and it will be remembered fondly by the child when he or she grows up as a very warm and intimate time. Only very recently my granddaughter read me a bedtime story, and I really enjoyed that. This does not have to cost money as our libraries are very child-friendly places these days. A child who can read need never be bored. Children's authors today are so wonderful at stimulating the imagination, and even the classics that we remember from our own childhoods are coming back into fashion and being reissued in modern editions.
	I heard of a wonderful initiative the other day, sponsored by Dolly Parton—I am really name-dropping tonight, aren't I?—in her home state in the USA and here in the UK, in what she calls "Rotherhayam". It is called the Imagination Library. The scheme sends books to young children on their birthdays so that, however deprived they are, at least they have some chance of owning their own books. Hooray for Dolly, I say. Perhaps the Minister could say something about the funding for museums and libraries to ensure that they remain affordable for the poorest families to use with their children.
	When kids say they are bored and have nothing to do, it may be because they have never been taught by their parents how to spend their time constructively. The best way to do that is by example. I know parents who spend all their free time doing sport with their children, not just standing on the touchline, taking them on days out, taking them to football and so on. I have enormous admiration for their energy and dedication and I know their children will never be bored because they know how to occupy themselves. However, I agree with the right reverend Prelate that it is important for the Government to do all they can to enable parents to be at home when their child needs them.

Baroness Morris of Bolton: My Lords, I add my thanks to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham for securing this important debate. I know from working with him during the course of the then Work and Families Bill in 2006 that these are issues that he cares about deeply and on which he speaks with passion and authority.
	The family is the most immediate and significant group within which people share responsibility for one another's well-being. It is no surprise that at our spring forum in Gateshead my right honourable friend David Cameron said it was his ambition to make Britain more family-friendly, because families should be the most important thing not just in our lives but in the life of our country.
	We are all too familiar with the depressing statistics of what happens when children are not taught the vital core values of respect, hard work and what is right and wrong. We have anti-social behaviour and crime, of which my noble friend Lord Elton spoke with such great knowledge. We also have gangs, drugs, binge drinking and underachievement at school. It is vital that families, in all their guises, are supported.
	My right honourable friend's speech at the weekend was spot on and touched on many of the issues we are debating tonight. He said:
	"Being a parent is the most difficult job there is ... Everyone feels they can't cope ... with getting up at 4am and then having to somehow get enough sleep so you can function at work. Everyone runs around in a panic in the morning getting the kids ready while making breakfast and ironing a shirt".
	He went on to ask:
	"What can the government do about this? After all, it can't feed the kids or iron your shirt. But it can start by getting the framework right so the system works with parents not against them".
	Juggling a job and family responsibilities is still not easy, especially—as the noble Lord, Lord Addington, said—if you are on a low income. It is therefore hardly surprising that EOC polling showed that seven out of 10 people were concerned about what family life would be like for them and their grandchildren, with six in 10 expressing concern about spending enough time with their families.
	As the right reverend Prelate pointed out, the concept of a Monday-to-Friday, nine-to-five working week is a thing of the past. However, as the daughter of small shopkeepers who worked six days a week and, if the right reverend Prelate will forgive me, all the hours God sends, and as a working Peer, Monday-to-Friday and nine-to-five is not something that I have ever recognised. Many jobs now require unsocial hours, with three out of four families experiencing some weekend work.
	However, it is interesting to note in the excellent briefing that the right reverend Prelate so kindly gave us that, where parents were in control of their working hours, that work was seen as beneficial. The issue of being in control of our lives is a vital component of the whole area of general well-being. Flexible working—one of the great themes in our debates on the Work and Families Bill—is one area where people feel in control of their working lives, and where they can balance work and family life. The right to request flexible working has undoubtedly been a success, with the vast majority of requests being accommodated.
	When we were discussing the subject of extending the right to request flexible working to those with children under the age of 18 during passage of the Work and Families Bill—and I fully acknowledge that the right reverend Prelate and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, fought the good fight on this issue—my party was looking carefully at a whole raft of employment issues. However, the timing was just wrong for that legislation. As noble Lords will know, I was personally sympathetic to this extension. I was therefore delighted when David Cameron announced that our party policy would be to extend the right to request flexible working to all parents and that we would make sure that the public sector—Britain's biggest employer—becomes a world leader in providing flexible working opportunities.
	As the right reverend Prelate pointed out, research shows that the long-hours culture in many organisations stops parents taking as active a role as they would wish in bringing up their children—such as taking part in after-school activities, helping with homework, putting their children to bed and reading them bedtime stories.
	It is imperative, however, that we take business with us. Can the Minister say how many hours per week a small to medium-sized business spends on compliance with regulations, filling in forms, endlessly trying to reach government departments and pressing buttons one, two or three? This has a damaging effect on family life. Deregulation is a family policy too.
	If employers felt less frustrated by regulation and more able to concentrate on their core business they would be less stressed and happier when they returned home. Freeing up that time might help small to medium-sized businesses think outside the box and consider more family-friendly policies for their employees. Research suggests that a majority of managers are not yet comfortable with flexible working. Can the Minister say what the Government are doing to make the case for greater flexible working to the business community?
	There is a whole host of other things we need to look at. Perhaps I may give just one example. I recently received a letter from a teacher in the north-west, a single mum who is prevented from spending time with her children because of the different ways that neighbouring local authorities plan their holidays. Can the Minister comment on that? The odd arrangements over the Easter holidays are a classic case in point. I do not favour national standardisation but some common-sense contact between neighbouring authorities might help.
	The noble Lord, Lord Dearing, said that it was good news when the Government brought together under one department children, schools and families. He should try saying DCSF as a dyslexic. The Conservative Party thinks that it is of the utmost importance that we do our bit to raise children and family issues up the political agenda. It is essential that we give our children time and space to grow up and that parents are able to give them their time and support as they are growing up.

Lord Adonis: My Lords, the House is indebted to the right reverent Prelate the Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham for securing this debate. When I first read the Question on the Order Paper asking Her Majesty's Government what plans they have to help parents of school age children spend quality time with their children at weekends, I was wondering whether the right revered Prelate was rising to complain about having had to spend a clerical career working on Sundays. Indeed, I was not even sure what the reference to "especially those on low incomes" meant and wondered whether this was him asking the Archbishop, through the House, for pay rises all round. However, I am glad that he is inviting us to trespass on the affairs of the nation and not on the affairs of the church. He did so in a typically powerful and thoughtful speech, to which I am glad to be making a response.
	As the right reverend Prelate rightly said, parenting is now generally recognised as the single greatest factor in a child's personal development and educational attainment. It outstrips class, ethnicity and even disability in terms of its influence on the path that children take as they grow up. All of the contributions to this debate have reflected this fact. As the noble Lord, Lord Elton, said, Governments of all political persuasions need no persuading of the importance of parenting to a healthy society. As the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, said, we created the Department for Children, Schools and Families to bring most areas of government action on children and families within the purview of a single department.
	I also strongly endorse what the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, said about the excellent work of those many public institutions which provide worthwhile activities for children and families at weekends. She particularly highlighted the role of libraries and museums, which do outstanding work, and is quite right to highlight the modernisation in our museum infrastructure in recent years. She asked what we are doing to promote access to museums for those on lower incomes. I can immediately respond that the abolition of entrance charges to museums is one of the most worthwhile changes we have made in recent years to promote access to museums for those on all incomes.
	I first emphasise the Government's commitment to supporting parents and the fulfilment of parenting responsibilities, not just with words, but by describing the actions and the substantial public investments we have made in recent years. We have increased maternity leave from just 14 weeks in 1997 to a year and doubled statutory maternity pay to £112.75. We have introduced two weeks paternity leave, paid at the same rate, and we are consulting on extending this further. We have invested more than £21 billion in early years and childcare since 1997, increasing spending fourfold, so that, today, every three and four year-old has a right to free nursery education. Children on lower incomes have a right to full-time placements where appropriate and wanted by their parents. From April 2010, when the latest changes come into effect, the average household with children will be £2,000 better off in real terms as a result of the Government's reforms to the tax and benefit system since 1997.
	We have also, for the first time as a matter of law, made it possible for parents to request flexible working. It is hard to think of a more universally applauded reform, as we have seen in the debate this evening. The right reverend Prelate focused his remarks particularly on flexible working, so I shall do the same in response. Recent years have seen a revolution in employment patterns. Many more women and significantly more men are now combining parenting with paid work. More and more parents are caring for elderly relatives as well as bringing up children, and working hours are much more varied than they used to be. These developments are largely positive for society. They offer workers, especially women, more flexibility, opportunity and independence than they have ever had before, and they make for a larger, more diverse workforce and a more dynamic economy. However, they also put pressure on family life. We know that parents want to be able to spend more time with their children, but it can sometimes be hard to find the time.
	It is for precisely that reason that, in 2003, the Government—with the consent of Parliament—gave parents with children under the age of six, or disabled children under 18, the right to request flexible working and have their request taken seriously. In April of last year, we extended this right to carers of adults. The right reverend Prelate has already described the broad success of this policy. It has contributed to a culture change in our workplaces, with 14 million people—some 56 per cent of all employees—now working flexibly, or having done so at some point in the past year, regardless of whether they have the statutory right or not. Comparison with our European neighbours makes this positive impact clear. In 2007, the European working rights survey found that 85 per cent of UK workers said that their working hours could fit well with their family or social commitments, compared to the European average of 79 per cent.
	The changes have been good for employers, too, for the reasons set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Morris. They have benefited from access to a larger pool of skills and talents in the workforce, improved recruitment and retention, and increased staff morale and productivity. In November, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister announced that we are looking to extend flexible working further, for parents with older children. We know that we must act sensitively in this area for the reasons given by the noble Baroness, Lady Morris. We want to minimise any potential negative impact on businesses of extending this right and, above all, we want to retain the willing engagement of employers. Without it, the law, which provides a right to request flexible working, could be less effective. The current law is supported by employers; they accept four out of five requests for flexible working. As we seek to extend this right to parents of older children, we are anxious to maintain employer support.
	It is for precisely this reason that the Prime Minister has asked Imelda Walsh, the director of human resources at Sainsbury's, to lead an independent review to recommend a new upper age limit. This review will report in the spring and there will then be a public consultation before the Government recommend to Parliament firm proposals for change. I hope that the right reverend Prelate and all other noble Lords who have contributed to this debate will make their views known to Imelda Walsh at this highly formative moment in the development of national policy on flexible working. I will certainly ensure that she receives a copy of the Hansard report of this debate where the views of the House are fairly strongly made.
	As the right reverend Prelate pointed out, flexible working can be a particular challenge for low-skilled families on low incomes. Let me stress that flexible working does not necessarily mean parents working fewer hours for less money; it can and does often mean matching working hours to family life. However, it is true that low-paid jobs can often involve working unsocial hours and weekends; low wages can force parents to work long hours; and our own research suggests that those on low incomes are less likely to have access to flexible working.
	I should like to make two points about this issue. First, although work can have disadvantages and the work/life balance is often a real challenge, the disadvantages of unemployment are far more serious. A child's risk of poverty, with all the negative consequences that this entails, falls from 58 to 14 per cent where one or both of his or her parents are working. So the Government, I believe, are right to continue their policy of promoting sustainable work as the surest way out of poverty. Secondly, for low-income families, especially those who cannot afford to work anything other than long and unsocial hours, the right to request flexible working is certainly not a cure-all. Low-paid parents also need more fundamental support to help them spend more time with their children and to improve their quality of life more generally.
	This is why we have introduced the national minimum wage, significantly boosting the wages of the low-paid; it is why we are doing more to promote job search by the low paid and, through schemes such as Train to Gain and local employment partnerships, to help those without skills to access the training they need to improve their job prospects; it is also why we are providing increased direct financial support to those on lower incomes. Last week's Budget mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, included an extra £950 million over the next three years to increase support to low-income families and to make those most in need better off in work. From April 2009 we will increase child benefit to £20 a week and no longer count it as income when calculating housing and council tax benefits, we will increase child tax credit by £50 per year in real terms and we will invest £125 million in piloting new approaches to supporting low-income families in the long term. These changes, together with others since 1998, will mean that from April 2010 households with children in the poorest fifth of the population will be £4,500 better off in real terms compared to the position in 1998. Flexible working can help all families to spend more time together but for those on low incomes, the Government are also seeking to provide the wider support they need, including increased direct financial support, to enable them to bring up happy and healthy children and to get a better work/life balance.
	So far I have spoken mostly about income and helping parents to spend a greater quantity of time with their children. The Government are also seeking to help vulnerable parents improve the quality of their parenting. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, referred to the importance of parenting support. It is precisely for this reason that we are improving general guidance—for example, investing in the Parent Know-How service which draws together existing and new information and advice for parents, making it available through telephone helplines, on the internet and through innovative challenges such as text messaging. The Government are also seeking to ensure that families have access to better community facilities for children and teenagers. This is one of the reasons behind my department's new focus on play and also the continuing importance of sport and youth services mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Addington. The noble Lord particularly mentioned community sports and I am glad to be able to tell him that to sustain and develop community sport, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport announced in September £5 million of investment over the next three years, specifically focused on enabling 10,000 parents and others in 70 of the most deprived areas in the country to become volunteer sports coaches in order to stimulate the sports activity on which he rightly placed so high a premium.
	In conclusion, I once again thank the right reverend Prelate for initiating this debate. We have had a timely reminder of the arguments for further extending the right to flexible working. We take those arguments very seriously, which is why we appointed the Walsh review. The benefits of helping parents to spend time with their children as they grow up are undoubted and the Government are committed to doing all that we reasonably can to advance this cause.

Lord Elton: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, will the consultation of which he spoke take on board the fact that 47.1 per cent of all people employed in industry and commerce are employed by small employers who have much greater difficulty in providing flexible time? If it does not, can he tell us how else we can address this problem?

Lord Adonis: My Lords, the independent review will take full account of that issue. Indeed, it is because of the need to balance the needs of employers with those of parents that the Government have stood back from this issue and asked for independent advice before reaching a decision.

Baroness Crawley: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 8.30 pm.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
	[The Sitting was suspended from 8.26 to 8.30 pm.]

Climate Change Bill [HL]

Further consideration of amendments on Report resumed.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: moved Amendment No. 224:
	Before Clause 62, insert the following new Clause—
	"Secondary legislation
	No secondary legislation, including any order or regulations, may be made under this Act unless it is necessary for the proper operation of the Act and is compatible with the principal aim of the Act."

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I am not sure why this amendment finds itself in this position on the Marshalled List, for it is a general purpose clause which covers wide-ranging elements of the purpose of the Bill. Indeed, it refers to the primary aim of the Bill, but there it is. I am pleased to have to the opportunity to speak to it.
	The amendment places a duty on the Secretary of State such that all secondary legislation that comes from the powers created in the Bill are compatible with the primary aim of the Bill: stopping climate change. Your Lordships decided to include a specific primary aim in the Bill, and that primary aim is the anchor of this further amendment.
	This is very much a framework Bill. Much of the efforts that will be made to reduce emissions and stop global warming will come through secondary legislation, much of which will be highly specific. It is of the utmost importance then that all regulation coming from the Bill be tethered to its primary aim. We have spent a long time examining this Bill: eight days in Committee and we are now on the fourth day of Report. I believe that our scrutiny has been worthwhile. However, when it comes to putting the Bill into practice, when the orders start being made, we need to have some way to ensure that the overall goals that have energised our debates on the Bill are still considered with the same force.
	We want to avoid situations where we are failing to see the forest for the trees and sometimes contributing more to climate change through our actions than stopping it. The case of biofuels is the famous example— denuding entire landscapes of forests in the interests of producing carbon-neutral fuel. The amendment aims to stop that sort of thing from happening. In practice, it would put pressure on the Secretary of State to consider carefully all of the implications of each statutory instrument and its potential effect on the environment. I know that that should happen now. However, this amendment seeks to place a guarantee in the Bill that every effort made is an effort in the right direction. We want to take out the room for excuses and ensure that real progress is made to stop climate change. I beg to move.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, suggested that this was a general purpose clause, but it is more a general non-purpose clause from the Government's point of view. The amendment would prevent the Government bringing forward any secondary legislation that was not strictly "necessary" for the "proper operation" of the Act, or which was not compatible with the 2 degrees centigrade goal.
	The noble Lord made clear, and I understand, the spirit behind his amendment. We debated its intention in Committee. My noble friend Lady Morgan said that the amendment could have a very significant effect on the Government's ability to meet targets and budgets set under the Bill. Requiring all secondary legislation to be "necessary" for the operation of the Act would prevent trading schemes being introduced under Part 3, or the amendment of targets and budgets—just to give some examples. The Government would be liable for judicial review if we did not meet the tests set out by the amendment, and the court could order that any secondary legislation that did not meet those tests should be quashed.
	I entirely understand why the noble Lord is seeking to be specific in the amendment and to ensure that the main principles of the Bill are realised. The Bill's powers to make secondary legislation have been scrutinised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, and we have been able to accept virtually all its recommendations; so there has been a proper process to ensure that the powers in the Bill are appropriate. I note that the majority of powers to make secondary legislation use the affirmative resolution procedure, so they will have to be debated and approved by both Houses of Parliament. That is the essential parliamentary safeguard on the majority of secondary legislation that could come forward under the Bill, and there is ample opportunity for scrutiny. The Government have introduced a significant number of amendments on Report that would strengthen Parliament's role, and we have debated a number of them today. In some cases, for instance with regard to parliamentary oversight of the carbon accounting rules, we are actually going beyond what the Delegated Powers Committee recommended. We have also made commitments about the scope for further parliamentary debates on climate change.
	Amendment No. 224 requires all secondary legislation to be compatible with limiting the average increase in global temperatures to 2 degrees centigrade. As we discussed in Committee, the idea of a compatibility test would have limited practical effect. It would be ever so difficult to establish that a single piece of secondary legislation was, on its own, incompatible with the Bill. Even if a particular statutory instrument could lead to an increase in emissions, that would not in itself necessarily be incompatible with the aims of the Bill, because there would be nothing to stop compensatory action being taken in another area. So, in that respect, we could honestly say that no Government with an order or statutory instrument, if looked at in isolation, could be accused of producing something that was not compatible with the Bill.
	Therefore, we have two positions. First, we do not think that the amendment could achieve its aims. Secondly, if it were to do so and under judicial review it was established that a piece of secondary legislation was incompatible with the aims of the Bill, we would be in the extremely difficult position that such secondary legislation would be quashed. All Governments, properly, both for themselves and for their successors, seek to avoid in legislation any dangers of that kind. I am not denying the intentions of the noble Lord; I am saying that Amendment No. 224 is either dangerous or ultimately futile because of the way in which a Government could phrase their arguments. In either case, it will be understood by the House why the Government reject it.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, one can sense one is after the break, so to speak, when adjectives such as "dangerous" and "futile" are used to describe what to my mind is a relatively modest measure. I am disappointed that the Minister is resisting the amendment. It proposes a new clause that is designed to ensure that there are no waifs and strays of secondary legislation creeping out of the Bill, and it tightens up the Bill as a framework Bill. It has all sorts of provisions within it. All this amendment seeks to do is to make sure that any secondary legislation that originates from this Bill, when it becomes enacted, is properly for the purpose of the Bill and the Bill alone.
	I know that all Governments look at such legislation and think: this is restricting elbow room; this is restricting freedom of manoeuvre; this Bill is perfectly workable without this amendment in it. In other words, it adds nothing to the utility of the Bill as an agency of government. However, the amendment makes sure that the Government, whatever Government, focus properly on the operation of the Act. It requires that anything that is done is necessary for the operation of the Act. It also requires that it is compatible with the purposes of the Act, the principal aim of the Act. Some might say it is an overreaching target. The fact that the Government are rejecting the amendment suggests that it is too far for the Government to go. That is regrettable. The Bill would be better were this clause included. But, given the fact that the Government are not happy to accept it, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Davies of Oldham: moved Amendment No. 225:
	After Clause 62, insert the following new Clause—
	"Waste reduction provisions: interim report
	(1) If it appears to the Secretary of State that it will not be possible to lay a report under section 62 in relation to a pilot area before the end of three years beginning with the day this Act is passed, the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament an interim report in relation to that pilot area before the end of that period.
	(2) The interim report must contain—
	(a) a description of the scheme and of the respects in which the provision made or to be made by it differs from that made by the schemes in other pilot areas,(b) a copy of the order made by the Secretary of State under section 61; and(c) a description of the respects in which the relevant enactments and guidance applying in that area differ from that applying—(i) in other pilot areas, and(ii) in areas not designated as pilot areas.
	(3) If the scheme has not been implemented, the interim report must contain a description of the progress made towards its implementation.
	(4) Otherwise, the interim report must contain—
	(a) a description of the scheme's operation, and(b) an assessment of the progress made towards achieving the scheme's objectives, if such an assessment can reasonably be made."

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Rooker, I rise to move Amendment No. 225. I hasten to add that if the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, thought that we were post-dinner and that therefore the Government were being unduly aggressive, I apologise for that tone. Secondly, I have now got an amendment in which I can be conciliatory. Therefore, I hope to work my way back into his good books. When we discussed the waste provisions issues in Committee, my noble friend Lord Rooker said that he would look again at the whole issue of engaging Parliament in the evaluation of pilots. We had a short debate before dinner on some of these issues. We recognise that the previous drafting left some noble Lords with considerable concern that pilots could carry on for long periods of time without any flow of information back to Parliament on their progress. Amendment No. 225 addresses those concerns. The amendment will require that the Government have reported back to Parliament on all of the pilots within three years of Royal Assent to the Climate Change Bill. So, for any of the pilots on which we have not provided a final report within three years, we will at least lay before Parliament an interim report on their progress to date.
	In this situation, we would seek to provide as comprehensive an interim report as possible, reflecting the extent to which a pilot had progressed in the time that it had been in operation. The structure would follow as closely as possible the structure of the final report, as can be seen in subsections (2), (3) and (4) of our amendment. In particular, any report must describe the scheme and explain how it differs from schemes operating in other pilot areas. It must also contain a copy of the designation order. In the case that a scheme has not begun when the interim report is laid, the report must describe progress towards implementation. But if the pilot is already under way, the report should assess the progress towards meeting objectives that far.
	The value of Amendment No. 225 is in making absolutely sure that Parliament and the public are kept well informed about, and closely involved with, the pilots as they progress. On this basis, and as explained by my noble friend in his factual briefing note which he circulated on 20 February, we are hopeful that we can have a debate in both Houses of Parliament, if and when the Government wish to roll out the powers to all English local authorities. I hope it will be recognised that this amendment is a step to meet concerns expressed in Committee. I beg to move.

The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, this amendment goes some way to answering questions put by a number of noble Lords concerning the start time, the duration and expected end of the pilots, in that we now see that three years from the date of the Act being passed is the overall time span. There will of course be no reason why one or more pilots should not have been completed within two years but this overriding span is none the less of interest.
	The Minister gave a good explanation in response to another question; he said that the interim reports will be out within three years if it is not possible to produce the full report. That is a great help to the House. When we earlier got into problems that might arise with devolved legislation, the Minister was good enough to explain the arrangements and agreements made with, for instance, the Scottish legislature to bring into action the carbon reduction commitment in a parallel state to that operating in England. I realise that these provisions do not apply to Scotland but does the Minister have any indication whether the Scots will try to deal with waste through future legislation or are they in the happy state of being able to ignore it?

Lord Greaves: My Lords, I agree substantially with the comments of the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose. I will not interfere with his comments on Scotland; I do not consider myself an expert on that—on this issue at least. This is a helpful and welcome amendment, which goes some way towards clearing up the considerable confusion felt in Committee about what would happen when the pilots finish and how they will be dealt with and rolled out. I am not sure that it goes as far as we would want in order to clarify the situation but it goes some way.
	The Minister pooh-poohed the idea that the House of Lords would want to know much about this or get involved in it until the affirmative instruments were introduced. There are means by which Members of this House can debate things if they really want to, and we may want to do so even if the Government do not think that it is terribly important. Some of us are very interested in this.
	The amendment suggests that the contents of the interim reports will be very much the same as those of the final reports—apart from the concession that they are interim. One assumes that the assurances given in Committee about what the reports will include—some of us tried to make the legislation much more detailed—will apply. I assume that that is okay.
	There is still concern about the process getting quite messy. Let us assume, for the purposes of this debate, that there will be five pilots; some of us think that there may be a different number in the long run. If there are five pilots, they may take place over different periods of time—one may be longer than another or start later than another—they may finish at different times, and some of them may run over the three-year limit within which an interim report has to be provided. It is not clear how the rollouts will operate. Suppose that there are several three-year schemes and a two-year scheme, which finishes and is a great success, and it is thought that the provisions of that scheme should be rolled out across England. That can be done while the other pilots are still taking place. When the other pilots report—on an interim or final basis—can there be a rollout of a different scheme? Is that possible under this legislation or would it mean that the orders rolling it out would be amended to encompass different things? For example, there could be a highly successful sack-based scheme and the Government could say, "This has really worked well in the Cotswolds, we want to roll it out across the country". What would happen if further information comes through six months later about a successful weight-based or volume-based scheme somewhere else? Would there be amendments to the statutory instruments, to the affirmative orders, or would there be different orders from which local authorities could choose? There seems to be scope for messiness, certainly confusion, over what is possible and what is not, after a series of reports.
	Equally, if an interim report comes back within three years, and there is a rollout on the basis of that, can the authority carrying out that pilot continue with it, even though it is different from what has been rolled out? On the basis of the interim report, the Government may modify and amend the scheme and then roll out that amended scheme. What would happen to the pilot scheme in the remaining period of time? Would it continue to the end, when we would get the final report? I am not sure that all the detail has been thought out properly. There is plenty of time—this has to go through the House of Commons, and Members there can enjoy themselves talking about it. The government amendment is an improvement but they are not quite there yet.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, my response to the noble Lord, Lord Greaves—I hope he will accept that it is based on unexceptionable principle—is that pilots plus independent local government means variety. He seems to be asking whether we have thought through how prescriptive we can be to get one uniform position, but the whole concept of pilots is that there are varied potential strategies. It will be for local government to decide, if a pilot has achieved some success, whether they choose the result of that exercise. They may await the outcome of another one coming along a little later or, if there are two pilots, they will have to choose. Local government will be able to make decisions within the framework of the ideas that are being rolled out.

Lord Greaves: My Lords, I agree with all the Minister says. I am asking what the Government, not local government, are going to do if a scheme is rolled out on the basis of a pilot. Is there then the provision for rolling out further schemes and will that be done on the basis of amendments to the statutory orders or on the basis of a series of different statutory orders from which councils can choose?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, these issues have to come back to Parliament anyway. I am trying to explain that I cannot be prescriptive about how the Government are going to address each of these pilots and their consequences. All I can indicate is the principle that the legislation envisages, which is the unexceptionable principle I have adumbrated. The noble Lord said he agreed with the sentiment behind it. That ought to do. I also accept his point about this House or Parliament debating these issues. Certainly it will be necessary for Parliament to have a say. Whether this House debates the issues will, of course, be for business managers to decide at the time. But as the noble Lord has indicated, if an issue is of significance to noble Lords, there are many and varied ways in which it can appear before us in terms of the business of the House. I have not the slightest doubt that that requirement will be fulfilled.
	On the question asked by the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, this is English legislation. In fact, it is pretty close to becoming almost English local government legislation—pace the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. Therefore I have nothing to say about Scotland as far as this part of the Bill is concerned. Just as local authorities will look at the pilots for indications of how they can organise their schemes locally, I do not have the slightest doubt that Scottish local authorities could benefit from such activity. Knowing the Scots, they will choose wisely and well from the best of English examples.

On Question, amendment agreed to.
	Clause 63 [Waste reduction provisions: roll-out or repeal]:

Lord Greaves: moved Amendment No. 225A:
	Clause 63, page 29, line 11, leave out "one or more pilot areas" and insert "all the pilot areas that are in operation"

Lord Greaves: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 225A, I shall also speak to Amendment No. 226A in the same group. I will not spend much time on Amendment No. 225A, which would require all the pilots to run for the same time and end at the same time. We have discussed this today. It is clear that the Government do not agree but envisage a series of pilots, perhaps of different lengths and perhaps starting and finishing at different times. My view is that this is messy and will lead to problems, but I will not pursue this further today.
	Amendment No. 226A would require at least three months to elapse following the laying of reports—this would probably apply to interim reports as well—before a scheme was rolled out. That would allow sufficient debate inside and outside Parliament. It is a fairly simple point. We do not want reports, whether interim or final, to be produced on pilots, or rollouts to appear very quickly without adequate thought and time for discussion. I think, from what the Minister has already said today, that I have had satisfactory assurances in principle on this matter, but I would be grateful for them again now. I beg to move.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I will do my best to satisfy the noble Lord on Amendment No. 226A. I understand his desire to ensure that the rollout is fully thought through, but I do not agree that the amendment would be the right way to do it, particularly given the benefit to local authorities of being able to respond to the pilots in a timely fashion. We may have enough evidence to proceed to rollout before three months after the last report is laid. If we do, we would be doing local authorities a disservice by holding back the powers. Again, as my noble friend put it more politely, getting fixated at this stage on timetables and dates is not helpful to anyone. It is not helpful to local government. It fails to recognise the situation on the ground and to appreciate that we in government are quite serious about ensuring that we will take a decision on rollout only when we feel that we have collected enough good quality evidence from the pilots. This has to be sold to the public, after all.
	Admittedly we want to move quickly—we make no apology for that—but we want to move in the right direction, so we will not rush decisions based on partial evidence. That is an important point. It is not possible to be absolutely precise at this point about the actual timetables.

Lord Greaves: My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister's comments, which were extremely helpful, particularly towards the end.
	This goes back to the basic worry that the scrutiny of this legislation, which could be rolled out across the country, is being done on the basis of five pilots. There is a fundamental problem in that we are looking at how the pilots could work when, in practice, if one or two of the pilots are successful, the Government will be given considerable powers—subject to parliamentary consent, I agree—to amend the schemes and roll them out in a way that ideally should be done during consideration of primary legislation. Having said that, I am grateful for what the Minister has said, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Rooker: moved Amendment No. 226:
	Clause 63, page 29, line 21, at end insert—
	"( ) Where the amendments include such provision, they must also include provision—
	(a) for a statutory instrument containing the subordinate legislation to be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament, or(b) requiring a draft of such an instrument to be laid before and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament before the subordinate legislation is made,as the Secretary of State thinks fit."
	On Question, amendment agreed to.
	[Amendment No. 226A not moved.]

Lord Greaves: moved Amendment No. 226B:
	Clause 63, page 29, line 26, at end insert—
	"( ) An authority which is operating a pilot waste reduction scheme may at the end of the period specified in the order designating the scheme or at any time thereafter—
	(a) terminate the scheme, or (b) continue to operate the scheme until such time as the Secretary of State issues an order under subsection (2)(b) or (4)."

Lord Greaves: Amendment No. 226B concerns an issue we discussed in Committee, which was not resolved satisfactorily. What happens when a collection authority completes its pilot? It may consider that it has been successful and want to continue; the report has been sent to the Government, but they have not yet issued the orders and regulations to roll it out. The concern is that the whole local refuse collection system would be disrupted because the pilot would have to stop and perhaps start again in three or six months' time.
	I think that the Government will say that the amendment which they have just moved on interim reports will go some way towards solving this problem in some places. If an interim report is produced before a pilot finishes and the roll out of that as it is, or as it is amended, takes place before the pilot finishes, that authority would be able to continue in the same or an amended way. But in other ways it will not.
	In Committee, the Minister said, "A pilot is a pilot. It is time limited and it finishes". But that does not match common sense in the real world. If an authority is to be encouraged to take this seriously, it will need to invest a considerable amount of money—£200,000 has been suggested as a reasonable amount to set the system up. It will have to set up the necessary structures and organisation to carry out the pilot, and will involve employing staff and changing the ways of working and administrative systems. To expect it to stop, even if it has been successful, is not common sense and is not the real world. This amendment would do what the Government say they want to do; that is, it gives flexibility and assistance to local authorities and gives them the ability to decide for themselves.
	In Committee, we discussed the linked issue of whether the rollout would be compulsory or voluntary. The Minister referred to the Climate Change Bill briefing paper 15, the second factual briefing note on waste reduction schemes. Paragraph 13 sets out very clearly that rollouts will not be compulsory; that local authorities will be able to choose from a variety of schemes; that they will be free to determine the areas and households; and that they will be able to make their own decisions within the parameters of the Bill. That was an extremely useful briefing from the Minister. It answers all the problems and fears that were raised on this matter in Committee, particularly by me. I beg to move.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, the noble Lord has been commendably brief in moving this amendment and I shall be equally brief, if I can, in responding. I understand where the noble Lord is coming from, but there are some problems with the legal drafting of the amendment. It will bring me to my conclusion if I go through the two of them. First, at the end of the period in which the authority has been designated, the authority must already terminate its pilot scheme as the power to operate the pilot will lapse, so there is no need for a further clause to permit termination.
	Secondly, the power to operate the scheme is available to an authority only via an order designating it as the pilot for a fixed period or by an order applying the powers to all authorities. Either way the powers can be brought into effect only by the Secretary of State. The amendment, although seeking to bridge the gap between the two types of orders, is not legally sound, as an authority cannot use the powers without action by the Secretary of State. Despite the intention, Amendment No. 226B on its own has no practical effect.
	I understand that the intention is to avoid the dislocation between the pilot phase and the rollout phase. If there were a gap between the two, any authority running a pilot would temporarily have to unwind the scheme only to reinstate it, which would be confusing for residents and expensive for the council. It is a concern that we share, but we fully believe that we can manage the situation under the legislation as drafted. It is true that the situation could arise; it gives the noble Lord concern; we share that concern, but we are fairly confident that the proposed legislation will enable us to manage that situation.

Lord Greaves: My Lords, I am suitably admonished for my inadequate legal drafting, but as I do not claim expertise in that, I am not too bothered by it. I claim expertise in how local authorities work and how it affects residents, which is the substance of the issue. I am extremely grateful for the way in which the Minister has now understood the problem, and accepts that it has to be sorted out. I should be extremely grateful if he could write explaining how the problem would be tackled under the proposed legislation. He said in a bald sort of way that it could be dealt with under the Bill as it stands. I should be grateful if he would write to explain how. Will he do that?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I could do it by making a longer speech if I am allowed to come back. I was just trying to make the point.
	The Bill contains powers to report finally on each of the pilot schemes at a point at which we feel the evidence is sufficiently robust and capable of meeting the conditions set out in the legislation. Crucially, as we have said many times, we do not have to wait until the scheme has reached its final designated day before we report on it. Nor do we have to wait for every single designated pilot to run its course before we take an evidence-based decision on whether or not to roll out the powers more widely. The key thing is the quality of the evidence rather than tying ourselves down to a date.
	This flexibility is crucial to the schemes and our ability to act responsively and responsibly. It also means that, as long as we designate a pilot for a sufficient period, it need not be the case that the powers run out before a decision is made whether to roll it out.

Lord Greaves: My Lords, I am very grateful for that, but I can still foresee circumstances in which there might be problems. General elections might be called, or goodness knows what might happen. I do not understand why it cannot be put into the Bill in an appropriate manner drafted by government draftsmen to say that this is possible to take account of problems that might occur. I am happy to have the Minister's assurances. Perhaps people in the House of Commons might like to look at it again to make sure that it is sorted out. I thank the Minister and his colleagues for the consideration and care with which they have treated this part of the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
	Schedule 6 [Renewable transport fuel obligations]:

Lord Teverson: moved Amendment No. 227:
	Schedule 6, page 68, line 6, at end insert—
	"(3) It is the duty of the Administrator to ensure that only renewable transport fuel that—
	(a) causes or contributes to the reduction of carbon emissions over its total lifecycle from planting or production to use, and(b) contributes to sustainable development and the protection or enhancement of the national or global environment generally,qualifies as a permitted fuel under this Act."

Lord Teverson: My Lords, I shall be brief. We now come to the renewable transport fuel obligations. We are all agreed that the whole purpose of this measure will fall if we do not ensure that biofuels and all the other types of fuel do not contribute to a reduction of the carbon footprint. The Bill does that to some degree in terms of the administrator's duties and the way in which the measure is rolled out. However, we on these Benches feel that it is not tight enough and that is why we have tabled the amendment.
	Whatever the Minister's reply, it is highly unlikely that I will divide the House on this issue. At this stage I would be interested in understanding how the Government are going to ensure that even the requirements in the Bill as it stands are met. I ask this in the knowledge that this is not an easy subject for which there are easy answers, but it is important to understand the Government's intentions in terms of enforcing the restrictions in the Bill at the present time. I beg to move.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, we are pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, has introduced this amendment and we support the intentions behind it. We mentioned in Committee that the market for renewable fuels must be genuinely renewable. We are committed to the idea that steps should be taken to ensure that we do not inadvertently cause more damage to the environment when acting with the aim of stopping climate change. We hope that this sort of thing will be covered by the principal aim of the Bill, which your Lordships' voted to include; that is, that the policy will always be bound to an overall target and an overall impact. We do not agree with using biofuels that cause more damage to the environment and contribute to climate change through deforestation. That is not compatible with the general aim of stopping global warming, regardless of the fact that using them might offset some of our emissions in terms of our targets.
	We need to be careful about focusing too much on emissions reduction with a specific goal in mind when the wider implication could be worse for the environment in the end. The important point underlying the amendment is supported most ardently on this side of the House. However, in the light of the general aim of the Bill, we do not see that this amendment is as necessary as it might otherwise have been, if only for the fact that it would not be in the RTF administrator's power to ensure that the fuel meets the standard of this amendment. We would be very interested to hear further undertakings from the Minister regarding the ways in which he plans to deal with the RTFO.

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I shall speak briefly. Having served on the biofuels inquiry held by your Lordships' House, I can say that we were depressed at how difficult the certification of biofuels is going to be. While we may talk about biofuels being certified as not having been grown in a deforested area, I can tell noble Lords that, after visiting nine countries in central and south America over the past few years, the difficulty is that the biofuel crops are grown on land that for decades was cultivated for growing food. The biofuels are certifiable, but the fact is that food growing has shifted to the newly deforested areas. Food is needed for consumption in-country and does not need to be certified. This is an easy way around the certification issue and it is very difficult to address.
	I am sure that the Minister will say that this is a matter for Europe. I should be grateful if he could give me an indication of how Europe is going to address certification because the issue is important.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham has just commented that that is a tough one and the noble Baroness is right to a certain extent.
	This issue is so complicated that the note I have on the purpose and effect of the amendment runs to more than six pages, but my speaking note is three pages long. I make no criticism of anyone, but it is an incredibly complex area and the House would not thank me for going through all the purposes and effects at this time of night. I shall stick to the speaking note which I hope will address most of the central issues that have been raised.
	The amendment proposed is designed to place a new duty on the administrator of the renewable transport fuel obligation to ensure that only biofuels that deliver carbon savings and that contribute to sustainable development and the protection of the environment generally should be eligible under the RTFO for certificates. In Committee I said that the sentiments behind the amendment are ones with which the Government wholly agree. I also outlined why the Government believe that this is not something the UK could readily do in a way which is consistent with European Union or World Trade Organisation trade rules. We do not have agreed standards for sustainability or an agreed methodology for calculating the carbon savings of biofuels. If the UK imposed its own standards those are likely to be challenged.
	Our preferred approach has been to lobby the European Union to introduce a mandatory sustainability framework. In part it is due to these efforts that the draft renewable energy directive, published on 23 January this year, contains a sustainability requirement and criteria as well as a greenhouse gas saving requirement and methodology. The Government will continue to negotiate at EU level to ensure that these requirements are as robust as possible.
	The proposed amendment will not be needed in order for us to implement the renewable energy directive when it is adopted. Nor do we think that it will work as intended to provide an interim carbon and sustainability regime during the period before the directive is implemented. The proposed new Section 125A(3), which the amendment would insert into the Energy Act 2004, imposes a duty without defining what is meant by sustainability or how carbon emissions are to be calculated. To avoid uncertainty, the RTF order would need to be amended to clarify the criteria for sustainability and carbon saving. The new section and the amendments to the order would have to be notified to the European Commission under the technical standards directive and would be subject to a standstill period of delay.
	The initial standstill period would, we believe, be 12 months because the UK legislation would concern a matter covered by the draft renewable energy directive. The standstill period would be extended to 18 months if the Council adopts a common position on the draft directive. By the time that the standstill period is over, the renewable energy directive is likely to have been adopted and the directive provisions would supersede the proposed UK legislation.
	In addition to the standstill required by the technical standards directive, further delays might arise from compliance with the Government's obligation under the Energy Act to consult on the required amendments to the RTF order and with the affirmative resolution procedure applicable to the amending order. With the delays described, in reality the choice is either to continue with the renewable transport fuels obligation we have now, with a reporting mechanism rather than mandatory standards, until the directive, containing sustainability and greenhouse gas saving requirements, is implemented, or to revoke the order and withdraw the renewable transport fuels obligation until the directive is implemented. It is better to continue with the RTFO and its reporting mechanism, which will encourage the development of information supply chains. This will help the development of mandatory standards in the future.
	On a couple of points that were also raised, it is worth putting on record that the definition of a sustainable biofuel and the methodology for calculating carbon savings are rapidly evolving. Trying to impose standards before any consensus is reached will be difficult. The RTFO carbon and sustainability reporting mechanism is an important first step towards mandatory standards. The renewable energy directive will, when adopted, provide mandatory standards on an EU-wide basis. We hope and believe that this will be generally welcomed. UK officials will be working hard in the detailed negotiations to ensure that the standards will deliver the right results.
	The Government are taking seriously the concerns about the sustainability of biofuels. On 21 February the Government announced a review, led by the Renewable Fuels Agency, of the emerging evidence of the indirect impacts of biofuel production and what these mean for future biofuel policies and targets. The review will take into account recent studies that have suggested that the indirect or displacement impacts of biofuels have not been properly taken into account in earlier carbon-saving calculation methodologies. Initial analysis will be provided to Ministers as soon as possible, with a full report to follow over the summer. The review should help to ensure that we have the right evidence base to support decisions on the future of the renewable transport fuel obligation scheme and longer-term targets and, we hope, cover exactly the kind of example that the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, gave of land being swapped for one purpose to avoid having the certificate and used for another purpose—in this case, chopping down the trees and growing food—that does not require the certificate. Clearly, the whole chain is not right; it is not consistent with what we all understand as sustainable biofuels. The issue here is serious. My two notes cover the very point that the noble Baroness has raised, so she has scored a bull's-eye there. We hope to cover that with what we have announced.
	I cannot defend the delays, by the way. That is the procedure under the EU for this legislation, and there is no way we can change it. These enormous delays are due to the technical standards directive. In a way, one can see why that process is there: if you come along with a EU-wide standard, you do not want all 27 members going off and doing their own thing. You would end up with a standstill. The alternatives are that we pull back from what we have been doing and do nothing, which would not send the right signals, or that we do what we have been doing to create a reporting mechanism and gather some better information. Of the two courses the latter is preferable, and that is the one there would be consensus for.

Lord Teverson: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his extensive reply, which I have to admit was very persuasive. For the second time this evening I am fully persuaded. The irony, as the Minister well knows, is that the whole biofuel debate moves at a faster rate than political dialogue. To be frank, I am not sure that there is an easy answer. I am persuaded by the Minister and by the momentum we have had in terms of the European Union to ensure that we do as well as we can in that route. That becomes particularly important within a single market.
	At the end of the day, though, the only way that this can be solved is through a price mechanism that values the rainforest that would otherwise be chopped down. There will be an economic incentive if there is a greater economic benefit from rainforests not being cut down for other uses, and the system will solve itself through the market. Otherwise, as with anything else, the market will find a way around and rainforests and other important carbon sink areas will disappear, whatever artificial constraints we put on it. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: moved Amendment No. 228:
	Before Clause 65, insert the following new Clause—
	"Measurement of emissions by the Export Credit Guarantee Department
	(1) The Export and Investment Guarantees Act 1991 (c. 67) is amended as follows.
	(2) In section 7 (reports and returns), after subsection (1) insert—
	"(1A) The annual report shall include an assessment of the direct and indirect contribution of greenhouse gases to the climate from those enterprises for which arrangements were entered pursuant to sections 1, 2 or 3 in that year.""

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, the amendment aims to deal with reporting authorities and who should be reporting. Some time ago, in Clauses 12, 13, 14 and 15 in the Bill, we discussed accounting and what should be accounted for. We discussed the emissions that the UK itself emits and the reductions that the UK buys in terms of carbon units from abroad. The only area we have not discussed is emissions that occur overseas but are actually financed by the UK. That is where the Export Credit Guarantee Department comes in. Through that department we are financing some £1.8 billion worth of support for UK exporters. I have tabled the amendment because much of that support is for very carbon intensive industries.
	The amendment requires an additional section to be inserted into the Act governing the operations of the ECGD to make it a statutory obligation that it should publicly report on the greenhouse gas emissions associated with the activities of that department and the projects that it supports—as outlined in Sections 1, 2 and 3 of the Act that set it up. I am not asking for a lot in this amendment because the department currently measures the levels of its greenhouse gas emissions caused by the projects that it supports. However, although that information is already gathered, it is not publicly available. The fact that the department already collects all the information on greenhouse gas emissions associated with the projects it supports from the questionnaires that it sends out to its customers, means that to require it to report that information and be transparent in its operations is a very short step.
	The purpose of the amendment is therefore to ask the Minister whether the Government will require that to happen. I beg to move.

Lord Dubs: My Lords, I support the amendment. It seems to me perfectly sensible. It is not asking the ECGD to do anything extra in collecting information. All we are asking that body to do is to publish information that it already has. I understand that the German equivalent—the German export credit agency—already has to publish such information. It would not be very difficult for us to do so. It represents a commitment in line with the commitments that various government departments have made on climate change and I urge the Government to be sympathetic to the arguments in the amendment.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, unless I have completely misunderstood the background note to this amendment and the speeches from my noble friend Lord Dubs and the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, who say that they are not asking a lot—actually they are asking quite a lot and they probably do not quite appreciate it. My noble friend raised an issue about what they are doing in Germany, which has figured a lot tonight. If Germany is doing what I am about to say, and it is the reason why we could not accept this, further and better particulars need to wing their way down the Corridor.
	The noble Baroness is absolutely right to raise the issue. Looking at the broader impact, what the UK is funding through taxpayers' money and the activities of UK companies is very important. It is a complex area and there are some difficulties with the approach taken in the proposed amendment. It would place a new statutory purpose—as well as a significant burden of work—on the Export Credits Guarantee Department. The ECGD's role is to benefit the UK economy by helping exporters of UK goods and services to win business, and UK firms to invest overseas, by providing guarantees, insurance and reinsurance against loss.
	Where appropriate, the department undertakes rigorous environmental and social impact assessments, as required in its business principles. These cover the environmental impact of projects on their surroundings, the effects upon local populations, and the sustainability of the development. Like all government departments, the Export Credits Guarantee Department monitors its own sustainability through its Sustainable Development Action Plan. In 2007, the Sustainable Development Commission declared the department the most improved government department across a range of sustainability indicators.
	However, the role of the Export Credits Guarantee Department is not to measure the emissions of all the projects it supports and we do not believe that it should do that. The controlling owners or managers should report those projects' emissions. But the Export Credits Guarantee Department neither owns nor manages projects: it provides insurance to UK enterprises. No international rules call for export credit agencies to report emissions. I also suggest that an amendment to the Climate Change Bill is not the right place for this. The Export Credits Guarantee Department is subject to an Act which can be amended with proper scrutiny by Parliament. Dropping it in the Bill at this stage does not allow for that, with all due respect. Care and attention must be exercised before we rush into a new primary purpose for a government department, which is what we would be doing, and the costs and benefits must be assessed in advance.
	The amendment would in any case not achieve the purpose intended by the noble Baroness. As worded, it would make the Export Credits Guarantee Department responsible for all emissions of its customers and their customers. So if it reported one Airbus, it would be responsible for reporting all the emissions for Airbus and all the emissions for all the airlines that bought Airbus aircraft. Leaving aside the work involved in gathering such information from organisations that would have no obligation to provide it to the Export Credits Guarantee Department, any such figures would be meaningless in the context of showing what emissions the Export Credits Guarantee Department is supporting.
	I hope that is nice and clear in Hansard, so that when they come to look at amendments in the other place, they know what they need to do and not do.

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for hurrying back to speak to this amendment, which both he and I think is important. The Minister has clearly grasped that there is an important point here. I certainly would not accept, as I said when I moved the amendment, that it creates a huge new burden of work for the department, because it already gathers all this information. All we are asking for is that it should be transparent and publish it.
	The Minister also said that the department seems to think that it should gather information about environmental impact and so on "where appropriate". In talking about carbon emissions, an extremely serious issue, it is surely always appropriate that that information is gathered. There can be no excuse for it not to be, and it needs to be made public. Whether it is the most improved department depends on where the baseline was.
	I come back to the fact that about £1.8 billion of taxpayers' money going to support things that the public cannot know about, and having emissions that they cannot be aware of, is unacceptable. I am sure that between now and Third Reading the Minister may be able to give me more interesting information on where the Government intend to go with this issue, even if not in the Bill. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
	Clause 65 [Report on climate change: Wales]:

Lord Rooker: moved Amendment No. 229:
	Clause 65, page 29, line 40, at end insert—
	"( ) The report must, in particular, set out how the Welsh Ministers intend to exercise the power to give directions under section 56 (directions to reporting authorities to prepare adaptation reports).
	( ) Nothing in a report under this section affects the exercise of the Welsh Ministers' power under that section."
	On Question, amendment agreed to.
	Clause 69 [Fines for offences relating to pollution]:

Lord Davies of Oldham: moved Amendment No. 230:
	Clause 69, page 31, line 34, at end insert—
	"( ) Regulation 39(2)(a) of the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2007 (S.I. 2007/3538) (maximum fine on summary conviction of an offence committed before the commencement of section 154(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (c. 44)) is revoked."

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the amendment will make a change to the environmental permitting regulations. These regulations are a recent better regulation measure which has integrated waste management licensing with pollution prevention and control permitting. However, because of an anomaly between two pieces of primary legislation, the fining powers of magistrates' courts have had to be reduced significantly for waste management offences.
	The Government are concerned about the potential effect on the deterrence of waste crime and the amendment will allow us to put things back as they were as quickly as we possibly can. The gap on current estimates will be April to late July, two months after estimated Royal Assent for the Bill. The timing of the amendment will reduce that unfortunate window of opportunity for the enforcement of the lower penalty than the Government and the whole House would consider desirable. Once this part of the Climate Change Bill is commenced, magistrates will again be able to impose fines of up to £50,000 for waste management offences: a proper deterrent. Accordingly, I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Baroness Northover: moved Amendment No. 231:
	Before Clause 70, insert the following new Clause—
	"Guidance on reporting
	(1) The Secretary of State may issue, or cause to be issued by an authorised body, guidance regarding the information concerning a company's greenhouse gas emissions which should be publicly disclosed by such a company as part of its annual reporting.
	(2) The guidance may relate to the appropriate content and form of such disclosures and any matter necessary to promote the provision of transparent and comparable data regarding the greenhouse gas emissions of companies.
	(3) The guidance issued under this section may distinguish between different categories of company according to criteria to be determined by the Secretary of State, such as turnover or market share or number of employees or any other criteria the Secretary of State deems relevant, and may contain different standards for each category of company in respect of the content and form of the disclosures and other matters referred to in subsection (2).
	(4) Any company which is required to produce a business review under the Companies Act 2006 (c. 46) must report on greenhouse gas emissions having regard to any guidance given under this section and the Secretary of State may provide that compliance with any such guidance will be presumed to constitute compliance with section 417 of that Act in respect of reporting on such emissions.
	(5) The power to give guidance under this section includes the power to vary or revoke it."

Baroness Northover: My Lords, I realise that it is late but this is a very important issue, first raised in Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. My name was on his amendment and his is on my amendment. This time the amendment has been redrafted to make it more in keeping with the provisions of the Companies Act in terms of the effects on companies of different sizes or natures. I moved some of the amendments to the Companies Bill on the subject of business reporting when it went through this House. I was struck then by how ready UK business was to accept these provisions, recognising that shareholders and consumers saw such reporting as important. They wanted such reporting to be standardised and transparent so that they knew exactly where they stood, not least in relation to their competitors. It was an area in which they were already ahead of the Government. Under that Act certain companies already have to report on their impact on the environment, as well as on other issues which I will not address here.
	The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, rightly pointed out in Committee that,
	"much of the reduction in carbon is going to have to be achieved by commercial private enterprises".—[Official Report, 30/1/08; col. 733.]
	He said that he wished to put in place the kind of provision that ensured there was "behaviour change" among managers, decision makers, shareholders and investors so that carbon reduction was seen as relevant to the company's reputation. The Conservatives did not support this amendment in Committee though I hope they may have shifted their position now. The Minister said that he supported the intention of the amendment but argued that it was premature as it could, in effect, cross with the first reports under the Companies Act which should come out in late 2008 or early 2009. However, he expected that many companies would include information about climate change and other environmental issues in their reports. He said:
	"This is going to happen but not in the way and at the speed suggested by the amendments".—[Official Report, 30/1/08; col. 736.]
	We are keen to push this further. The Minister agrees that it is a good idea and that certain companies will need to report on their environmental impact anyway. We state here that the Secretary of State should be able to give guidance on this matter, obviously on a voluntary basis, but that any company that is already required to produce a business review must report within that on greenhouse gas emissions. Such companies might be about to do that anyway. This would make it clear that indeed they should. Although I heard what the Minister said last time about this being premature, I do not think that any of us finds it premature given the scale of the problem we face. It should fit well with what companies are expected to do anyway. This seems to be an opportunity that should not be missed. I beg to move.

Lord Teverson: My Lords, I have also put my name to this amendment, though we had a rather stronger amendment on this subject from these Benches in Committee. I was persuaded by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, that what we needed was something that—as my noble friend Lady Northover said—is more in line with the companies legislation. This is an important part of what the Bill could do in major corporations and businesses. The definition of what the Secretary of State has to do, and when he or she has to do it, has been left to their discretion in this clause.
	This is an enabling Bill that could achieve that effect in an area that really counts—business reporting. One of the most important things for enabling government to move ahead in this area is the provision of standards so that the companies that are ahead of the game and report this information have a consistent and understandable framework within which to do so. That would put pressure on the corporations that do not report greenhouse gas emissions or carbon emissions to come into line and do so.
	How does the Minister see international and European standards coming together with regard to the climate change disclosure board and the international accounting organisations that set standards for company reports? From looking at its website, I seem to remember that Defra suggests its own ways for companies to report carbon emissions. We need to bring this together so that there is consistency and others have to catch up with the corporations that are already well ahead in this regard and willing to do this. I agree that that has to be done within a timescale that allows the standards to be agreed, probably on an international basis, but a signal needs to be sent out that this will happen and that it is important that it does happen. That is why I think that of all the debates we have had in the last hour and a half, this is probably one of the most important in terms of the practical achievement of the real goals of the Bill.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, if my memory serves me correctly, when this matter was raised in Committee we had an incredibly truncated discussion. I cannot remember the cause of that but I remember telling my noble friend Lord Whitty that we had to finish at a certain time for various reasons. It may have been a Wednesday but the debate was truncated. I apologised to my noble friend and to others because the amendment was discussed at a late hour and I think the whole thing took about 10 minutes. Therefore, my response will be a bit longer than the speeches we have heard although it will not be too long.
	The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, are right—these are incredibly important issues. Like them, the Government are very keen to promote transparency of carbon reporting by companies. I want to discuss the activity that is already going on in this area. It is not as though we start from a clean sheet.
	At present a large number of companies are in fact already required to report on their carbon emissions. There are mandatory reporting requirements for approximately 1,000 UK companies included in the EU Emissions Trading Scheme, and about another 5,000 additional companies will also be subject to mandatory reporting requirements when the carbon reduction commitment comes into force in 2010. This amendment would make additional blanket mandatory requirements for companies to disclose their greenhouse gas emissions in their annual reports.
	As I mentioned in Committee, albeit briefly, the Government see the main objective of narrative reporting within business reviews as providing shareholders and investors with the information they need to assess how directors have performed in their duty to promote the success of a company. Clause 417 of the Companies Act 2006 requires directors of quoted companies to include information on environmental matters, including the impact of the company's business on the environment. In my 27 years in the other place the only time I was ever successful in the ballot for Private Members' Bills was when I came twelfth. I thought that I was not going to get anywhere but I introduced a Bill on environmental disclosure in company reports, which we later added to the freedom of information process. Needless to say, that Bill was blocked by the Tory Government of the time, but that was the subject I chose as there was a gap in companies reporting on that area. The fact that the relevant information may be included in company reports to shareholders is neither here nor there; these are public documents and it is very important that this information should be included. I hope that I have given this issue a bit of a push. I am not all bad as a Minister. I had another life when I was a "goodie".
	This is a matter of judgment for directors, according to what they think is necessary to understand the company's business. Although I anticipate that many directors will include information about climate change and other environmental issues in their reports, there is not yet a robust picture of what reporting is actually taking place, as the requirement came into force only on 1 October last year, as I said in Committee. The Government understand that and have committed to monitor how the narrative reporting requirements are implemented in practice.
	During the passage of the then Companies Bill in another place, Margaret Hodge, the then Minister of State for Industry and the Regions, committed to review implementation of the statutory business review provisions of the Companies Act 2006. This review is expected to take place in 2010. The detail of the review is yet to be determined but we envisage that it will provide an opportunity to look at whether information is being provided to shareholders and investors on climate change and other environmental issues in the context of the development, performance or position of a company's business.
	Under the Companies Act 2006, the Secretary of State may also vary the reporting requirements on business—although, as I have made clear, we should not use these powers to impose unnecessary burdens on business. We also think that it is important to recognise that many companies in addition to those involved in trading schemes which are obliged to do so already voluntarily report these data. For example, in 2007, 92 per cent of the UK FTSE 100 companies provided information on their climate change strategies and emissions to the voluntary investor-driven Carbon Disclosure Project.
	In terms of guidance on reporting, company law has recently been through a radical reform. The House will recall the debates during the passage of the Companies Act in 2006. Those debates concluded that the introduction of mandatory standards were not in the best interests of shareholders as directors would be best placed to judge what is relevant to report on in the context of their particular business. Mandatory guidance risks companies producing standardised responses designed to comply with guidance rather than proper consideration of environmental and other issues relevant to their business. However, wider support and guidance is available for companies; for example, best practice guidance prepared by the Accounting Standards Board— a body of the Financial Reporting Council—in the form of a reporting statement. This guidance covers environmental issues including emissions management.
	Defra has also produced environmental reporting key indicators which help companies through the process of reporting on greenhouse gas emissions data. The Government have also responded to calls from investors and business to make emissions data more comparable, and we support the work of the Climate Disclosure Standards Board to develop an acceptable international framework for corporations to report on climate change issues.
	Given those arguments, and with all that is going on, we could not at present support a mandatory requirement for companies to report on their CO2 emissions or for the Government to issue statutory guidance.
	The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked what the Government were doing on common international reporting. I have touched on the issue. There is no determined and agreed international standard. As I said, we support the work being done by the Climate Disclosure Standards Board. We have also done the work. Defra is supporting the secretariat to the Climate Disclosure Standards Board launched at the World Economic Forum in 2007, which David Miliband attended. That was in response to increased calls for action from corporations and the markets to address global warming. The objectives of the member organisations of the board is to align their core requests for information from companies in order to ensure that they report climate change-related information in a standardised format and in a way that facilitates easier comparative analysis by investors, managers, above all the public, and, I imagine, the parliaments.
	We are not starting from a clean sheet: an enormous amount of work is going on. We do not think at present that it would be right to support this extra mandatory requirements on companies. Nevertheless, we entirely share the desire for transparency put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover.

Baroness Northover: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. We do not doubt that his heart is in the right place—and that piece of history rather confirms it. However, I am somewhat disappointed by some of the things he said. There were some mixed messages. As he may remember, the Companies Act was preceded by an agreement between the Government and business on what the nature of the reporting might be but the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, surprising business, knocked that into the long grass. During the passage of the Companies Act we steadily brought back bits of what had been originally agreed but which had been knocked sideways. That came up at just about every stage of that legislation in the Lords, and to some extent also in the Commons. I was involved in the sessions in the Lords.
	I hope that we can take this further. It is unfortunate that this issue has come up so late both tonight on Report and did so in Committee, and that we have not therefore been able to give proper consideration to it, because it is extremely important, as my noble friend Lord Teverson said. It is one of the weapons in our armoury in this regard, and many of the businesses that have to report on a mandatory basis would welcome it. Given the lateness of the hour, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
	Clause 70 [Territorial scope of provisions relating to greenhouse gas emissions]:
	[Amendment No. 232 not moved.]
	Clause 76 [Meaning of "national authority"]:
	[Amendment No. 233 not moved.]
	Clause 79 [Index of defined expressions]:

Lord Rooker: moved Amendments Nos. 234 to 239:
	Clause 79, page 35, line 20, at end insert—
	
		
			 ""Counsel General" (in sections 51 to 59) section 59(8)" 
		
	
	Clause 79, page 35, line 21, at end insert—
	
		
			 ""devolved authority" (in sections 51 to 59) section 59(3) 
			 "devolved functions", in relation to a reporting authority (in sections 51 to 58) section 59(4)  and (5)" 
		
	
	Clause 79, page 35, line 22, at end insert—
	
		
			 ""devolved Welsh functions", in relation to a reporting authority (in sections 51 to 58) section 59(6) and (7)" 
		
	
	Clause 79, page 35, line 34, at end insert—
	
		
			 ""Minister of the Crown" (in sections 51 to 59) section 59(8)" 
		
	
	Clause 79, page 36, line 15, at end insert—
	
		
			 ""reporting authority" (in sections 51 to 59) section 59(1) and (2)" 
		
	
	Clause 79, page 36, line 23, at end insert—
	
		
			 ""Wales" (in sections 51 to 59) section 59(8)" 
		
	
	On Question, amendments agreed to.
	House adjourned at 9.51 pm.